anti vegan

People Hate Vegans, Freud Could Explain Why

Rationalization

Ever get confronted by a sensitive meat eater who randomly starts mentioning something about cave dwellers and their dietary habits? Yup, of course you have.

How about, “It just tastes good.” Of course you have heard that one.

“Everyone else is doing it. Everyone eats meat.”

How about something about the bible and god giving people all the fowl of the earth? Yup, count that one in too.

Ever been reminded of the fact that humans have canine teeth and front facing eyes. Or how about some nonsense about a deserted island?

Rationalization: Avoiding a hard truth, people will rationalize behavior with all kinds of nonsensical bullshit.

People will use all kinds of nonsense to make sure that they do not have to make any sacrifices or change their behavior. When bested with critical thinking, logic or non fallacious arguments, their energy can turn negative very quickly. These people hate vegans for illustrating the truth. No but seriously, if you were stranded on a deserted island and had nothing but a sony walkman, would you eat a East-Polynesian sand rabbit?

Vegans hear all of the ridiculous leaps in logic and silly arguments used above, it’s not a joke, this is a norm for many. Let’s just break them down for a second.

First of all, how the hell do random people magically become experts on cave dwellers? Is there some sort of online curriculum that people take that allows them to speak with such confidence about prehistoric man? And why would the dietary habits of a caveman have anything to do with modern man? It’s a line of thinking similar to the noble savage fallacy. It’s an ‘appeal to nature’ fallacy. The idea that it’s more natural to eat meat, that’s why it’s okay, is nonsense. I’m pretty sure cavemen didn’t have toilets, cotton socks, air conditioners, vaccines or iPhones.

Similarly, the nonsense about humans being hunters and having canine teeth and forward facing eyes is just as irrelevant.

Better randomly mention something about the food chain, that’ll convince my ego that i’m not in the wrong!

Can humans be healthy and survive on a vegan diet. Yes. Okay, all those ridiculous arguments are moot.

It tastes good

Oh okay, fuck the planet, your taste buds are the most important thing on earth. You can see the level of effort the subconscious put into that argument. It’s just a notch above, “meat be good.”

The bible excuse is just bizarre, but that’s a whole different conversation. People have been using the bible to justify just about any behavior for two millennia, so we shouldn’t be surprised.

Another great one is where people yammer about how unhealthy the vegan diet is. Oh, please tell me more, there’s no doubt that you have researched what you are talking about and aren’t simply pulling stuff out of your arse.

People often hate vegans just because vegans usually have done the slightest amount of research. It makes the uneducated look stupid and they turn to resentment.

It is said that when a narcissist is confronted by someone they feel inferior to, they will try and out that person as a hypocrite.

Oh, but do you use antibacterial hand sanitizer? Ha ha ha. See, I got you, stupid! God, I hate vegans.

I once heard Joe Rogan mention that he isn’t vegan because small animals can be killed by the large farming machines that harvest fruits, vegetables and grains. Yup, that’s some productive logic. Better not wipe your ass because you may get some shit on your hand.

I was raised on a farm and am used to the killing of animals

Oh, you’re not biased at all. That line of thinking is just another appeal to nature fallacy. Just because you were raised around something and have done it your whole life, doesn’t make it right. Many farmers were and still are racist homophobes, that doesn’t make it right.

A form of rationalization, that leads a great many people to hate vegans is magical thinking. People have this idea that if they simply believe something, it magically comes true; How wonderfully convenient. Oh, wow,  people’s beliefs are also strongly correlated with their selfish desires? Oh you!

Up next: Hypochondriasis

  • Ravi K

    Brilliant and spot on :-).

  • Bill Smith

    PERFECT! This article nails it. Thank you. It should be required reading for all who go “meatless”.

  • Karen Darvin

    I’m not sure that pigs aren’t smarter than you haha

  • Jason Dunn

    Fantastic. Thanks.

  • Vegan Rob

    Well written as to the facts of what happens when someone declares that they are vegan. I have experienced these same asshole comments from meat eaters. True, I was not raised vegan, but I never mocked vegans or vegetarians when I was an ignorant, young meat eater; I think that much of the mocking stems from people’s insecurity in their daily decision making. And finally, to be honest, some people are just dumbf*cks.

    • Joel Bennett

      Things like “ignorant young meat eater” are the main reason I hate vegans

      • Matt Dickson

        Then you probably would have hated the abolitionists too.

        People hate it when they get called out on their terrible shit. Forces the same kind of self-reckoning the author of this article was talking about.

        You can hate vegans. I’ll hate people who knowingly contribute to harming other living beings and the future of our planet– all for a few minutes of enjoyment.

        • Vegan Rob

          Well stated Matt. Thank you for your compassion.

        • Vivi Siow

          I hate you,you hate me, when will this cycle stop?
          That guy pointed out that it’s because vegans condescend others just for not doing the same as them,that they did not like them.

      • Breda Bree

        its not even an insult lol its just the truth and ur offended by what we say you do and not actually bothered by what you DO

        • Vivi Siow

          Because it’s your opinion and not theirs-what gave you the right to force them to believe what you believe?

      • Jonathan Derick Holmes

        To be fair, there is nothing negative about the word “ignorant.” I’m ignorant on much of pop culture. I found out what “4Chan” was a few moths ago. If you are ignorant, that’s just it ignorant to “X.”

        That being said, the additional “young” was unnecessarily condescending.

        • Vivi Siow

          That’s just it. That line of ‘young,ignorant meat eater’ is meant to be condescending.

  • Meems

    This article is basically saying that the only reason people are vegans is because of factory farming. That is silly, because I’m not vegan but I don’t support factory farming either – I buy my meat, eggs & dairy from a local organic farmer. Technically, most of the vegans I know became vegans for health reasons, which is really backwards to me as I can be eating a healthy meal (albeit perhaps with lean meat, or some dairy) and watch my vegan friends eat chips and a soda. Not to mention they eat loads of soy and butter substitutes which are just as bad for you if eaten regularly. I think the issue many people have with vegans (or at least MY “issue”, if you even want to call it that. Perhaps confusion is a better word) is that veganism is such an extreme. I have read articles that liken it to an eating disorder. We are omnivores by nature, and of course it’s always a personal choice on how you eat, but the reasons and rationale behind why most vegans are vegans just doesn’t make sense to me. What happened to good old fashioned vegetarianism? Or even, better yet, just eating whatever we want without putting a label on it?

    • Camille

      You can be on a plant-based diet for health reasons, but you can’t be a *vegan* for health reasons as there is no health improvement in refusing to wear animals or use animals as entertainment, which is part of veganism.

      This article refers to factory farming as it is the most common farming practice and nearly everyone participates in it, but local farming and presumed “happy” exploitation is included. As I mentioned earlier, some vegans are not healthy because veganism is not about health, fat vegans do exist. Veganism can be considered extreme as it is the exact opposite of what 95% people eat, but there is nothing extreme in seeking to cause as less harm as possible to animals. What is extreme, is continuing to harm animals when we know it’s not necessary.

      Yes, some people have come with an eating disorder becoming vegan and obsessing with being perfect, but veganism is not an eating disorder in itself.

      Being an omnivore means you can eat whatever you want, it doesn’t mean you have to. Eating, wearing and using animals or not is indeed a choice, but it is not a personal one, or you are forgetting someone. Preferring orange over blue is a personal choice, choosing to kill and use animals over not doing it is not, just like choosing to do anything that causes suffering to any sentient being is not a personal choice.

      • Mariola Justice

        I couldn’t agree more. People who choose to eat a plant based diet solely for health reasons are not true Vegans. Vegans eat the way they do not for themselves but for all the sentient beings who are being exploited, raped, tortured and murdered daily so these so called ” omnivores” can enjoy a 5 min meal. Its about compassion and making the connection that these things…living breathing, feeling, loving beings are on this planet to live out their lives not to end up on your plate. They do not belong to us to exploit and profit. As the so called “intelligent” and evolved species we should protect and take care of them not use them for our gluttonous character which so many think is just part of being human. This is why most Vegans including myself can not stand the site of you corpse munching fucks. Remove the blinders and open your eyes…its almost as if you disconnect from the Matrix and see this world for what it really is along with all of its heinous crimes. The animal holocaust is real…and it happens every day before most of us even open our eyes. Have you ever looked into the eyes of these animals? They feel, they suffer, they love, they feel attachment and they feel fear. They are subjected to a life of torture and slaughter at the hands of the most dangerous beast out there….humans.

      • Rhiannon Hawk

        Here’s a new way of thinking…..You can be vegan for health reasons, for the health of the animals, for the health of the humans, for the health of the planet.

        • Amanda Holley

          Yay!

        • Jonathan Derick Holmes

          I have to agree. There is something quite akin to extremism when we use the adjective “true” I this way. Not a true vegan, not a true environmentalist, not a true LGBT ally, not a true Christian, not a true . . . It creates a false dichotomy of “True” vegans or everyone else, rather than the variations and levels of Veganism. That being said, there must be necessary and sufficient conditions for what constituency being a vegan. Exclusion of all animal products from diet is certainly necessary, though it is debated if it is sufficient.

      • Amanda Holley

        ‘obsessing with being perfect’ .. nice one!!! Being vegan is a personal choice for me …. a very empowering one.

    • Lindsay Freeman Lombard

      Because it isnt a personal choice when it involves exploiting hurting or murdering a sentient being that does not want to be hurt exploited or murdered. We are not omnivores by nature and do not need to eat other animals in order to thrive or survive. We are not like lions or other animals who have ACTUAL canines and eat uncooked flesh with their bare claws and teeth. When you live in a world where it is not only possible, but easy, to live a completely healthy lifestyle and recieve all the nutrients one needs without having to murder and animal that values its own life…then why not choose that? Why not choose ethics and compassion over selfishness- especially when it involves death and suffering. “Good ol vegetarianism” does not include all the suffering that comes from dairy products- which is just as bad if not worse than the meat industry. So much flawed logic in this questioning…. I dont understand how you can ask these questions…because if you just spent a short amount of time researching the answers to these questions you would not feel the need to ask the questions out loud. You would know without a shadow of doubt WHY vegans choose to be vegan. There would be no room for any confusion. The answers are easy to find if you just take a REAL amd HONEST and open minded/open hearted look. Amd I hope you do just that. The world needs more compassionate caring people…and the animals espcially need it.

    • Kim

      This is great, Meems….it’s like you read the article, and then proceeded to make a bunch of the arguments spelled out in it. I hope this is satire. Some people eat too much soy and butter substitutes. Yep, and some people feed their kids chicken nuggets until they drop dead at 13. There are ignorant people across the board. What do you believe is more extreme? Becoming vegan? Or participating in the most massive pollution the earth has ever seen? Even “sustainable” farming, if it were to keep up with the demand, would require an extra Earth. Turns out, we’ve just got the one. Agricultural pollution of our waterways has destroyed the drinking water in some communities and some believe that it is the prime factor in changing the acidity of the ocean. Let me repeat that….run off has likely changed the ACIDITY OF THE OCEAN. That’s a lot of f’ing water. Seems pretty extreme to me. Another extreme number: 50%. That’s how many known species we’ve killed off in the last 40 yrs, most of it for the sake of clearing land for animal (or animal supportive) agriculture. If you have kids or plan on having kids and you don’t change your diet, you all deserve what you get. Enjoy the next 40 years. “Eating whatever we want without putting a label on it” has gotten us this far…does it seem like a good path?

      • Larry

        It’s none of your fucking business how I choose to eat or why.

        • Kim

          But it is, Larry, in the same way it’s my business when corporations dump chemicals into rivers or belch toxic smoke into the air. No matter how much you stomp your feet and act like an infant, you don’t live in a bubble. You don’t get to do whatever you want without repercussions, and when those repercussions affect others, others have a right to weigh in. You don’t have to like it, hell, you don’t even have to do anything except continue to be angry, but you sure as shit don’t get to tell me with any validity that it’s not my business.

          • Theresa Easley

            It isn’t your business what kind of diet a person chooses. This control freakishness could just be why vegans are disliked.

          • Kim

            Theresa, I’m afraid you don’t understand what I’m saying. Animal agriculture is ruining the earth we live on. It’s responsible for a staggering amount of environmental pollution and damage. How could that not be everybody’s business? I know that not everyone will agree not to eat meat or animal products, but something must be done to address the volume and sheer greed by which it’s produced. You want control freakishness? Ask yourself why you think it’s normal for our agricultural system to work like it does. It’s because you’ve been brainwashed and manipulated by very clever advertising, so that already rich people can get even richer. And by doing so, create a great environmental expense that your children will be paying off for decades, if they live that long.
            And that’s just the environmental aspect. It’s “not my business” in the same way that my neighbor beating or starving his dog might not be “my business” or paying for education for everyone else’s goddamned children is “my business”, and even required by the tax code! (I don’t have any-don’t want any) Anything that influences someone other than yourself, that depletes everyone’s resources, or shapes the world that we live in, IS EVERYONE’S BUSINESS. If you don’t “get” that, then there’s no possible way to explain this to you. Unless something disastrous happens to you personally…like fracking in your back yard. If that happens, I’m sure you’ll be outraged at why people are acting like it’s not their business.

          • Jonathan Derick Holmes

            Please Easley, this isn’t even about the animals anymore. Even if all vegans cared little for animals, it is the best interest of human beings to adopt veganism. I can understand your response, how as we become more connected, more populated it feels as though the collective good of all comes at the expense of our individual liberties. But if we care at, there are some truths we have to be willing to accept

        • Jonathan Derick Holmes

          As Kim said, it sadly does affect us. Don’t you think I wish I had absolute freedom to partake in activities knowing they had no effect on those around me? I am all for personal freedom, but we are cursed with living in such a global, populated, and connected world where even our most tedious actions have global effects. Even activities that one thinks would only harm oneself such as smoking, have a global impact. I wish it didn’t have to be that way Larry, really I do, but we can’t be ignorant anymore.

    • Larry

      It’s none of your fucking business how I eat or why. I don’t tell you how to eat and would prefer you not sticking your nose into my motivations. you prove the article.

      • Gavin Smart

        It’s everyone’s business how you eat and why. If you deliberately choose to force sentient beings to go through horrific suffering and have no regard to the fact that our children may not have a future because of your actions that makes you a certifiable psychopath and we have a moral duty to do everything we can to try to wake you up.

        • Theresa Easley

          This here is why vegans are disliked. It is none of your darn business what a person eats and why. No one made you the food police. Also calling someone that eats meat a certifiable psychopath does nothing to help your cause. In fact, you come across as the certifiable psychopath.

          • Gavin Smart

            There’s no getting round the fact that the human race is facing extinction, it’s far too late for just asking people nicely. If you saw a child being beaten in the street would you just ask nicely and walk away if the person told you it’s their right to beat the child? Why do you think animals or the planet or those humans suffering because of global food imbalances deserve any less?

            Some people will always think they are better than others and that they can do what the hell they like and never think of the consequences. Running away from them because you don’t want them to think you’re an asshole isn’t going to help their victims. You can show them all the videos and facts you like and they will just taunt you with bacon jokes. Sometimes you have to be strong to effect real change. Stop allowing people to convince you that being vocal about this is wrong. They’re the assholes, not us.

    • Jayson Repko

      Just because there are products out there that are vegan and unhealthy adds absolutely zero weight to your argument. Guess what….the number of unhealthy food products in existence that contain animal products is astronomically larger than “junk food” that also happens to be vegan. You need better support to your claims. Even the healthiest eaters around “cheat” from time to time. That’s not an argument against not eating living things. At all.

    • Shiprex

      We are omnivores by upbringing not ‘nature’. We evolved from the same group of animals as apes and you don’t see them tucking into cows, chickens, pigs etc.
      Vegetarianism is just another name for omnivorism. Eating bee puke (made to feed other bees) causes bee populations harm.
      Milk products cause unnatural breeding cycles in cows not to mention the unnatural way of impregnating them and it takes a food that is meant to make a baby cow grow at 4 times the rate a human grows. Of course humanity in it’s wisdom takes that ability away from the milk by processing it for human consumption otherwise you’d be consuming all sorts of nasty things that you can find out about by researching why it is bad for humans. It’s also unnatural to consume baby food as an adult.
      As for eggs, you can consider what they really are and whether you’d consume your own species version of the same thing. I don’t think you would but then ask yourself the question why not your own but another’s?
      Just saying, not preaching.
      Living in space doesn’t change the fact that gravity exists

  • HikeBikeSwim

    The only mean comments against vegans that I’ve heard come from people associated with businesses (including lobbyists/pr reps/animal researchers and paid internet trolls) that make profits from animal products and from some people in media, many of whom know they have animal product/pharma advertisers.

  • Asha

    I talk about how much I miss eating Dog. That usually shuts people up.

    • Adrián

      Really???? hahaha
      This sounds like a good idea, i’m going to try eat :D

    • Matt Dickson

      Lets not overlook kitten meat. Extra tender.

      • Steve Bakewell

        That was a terrible joke…

        • Matt Dickson

          That’s the idea. It’s meant to illustrate a point.

          • Steve Bakewell

            What was the point? that killing a chicken is the same killing a cute little kitten?

          • César Humberto Cruz García

            Exactly, there is no reasonable difference, they are all live beings!!

          • Steve Bakewell

            No there IS a reasonable difference! bacteria you kill everyday are also living things!

          • César Humberto Cruz García

            Ok, good for you :)

          • Rebecca Mooney

            I really hope you don’t actually compare sentient and self-aware beings that feel pain and emotion….to bacteria… Bacteria is not sentient, it does not feel pain or love or fear, it doesn’t have a brain or nervous system. And neither do plants if that was your next question.

            The thought of eating dogs and cats is only horrifying to you because you were raised in a culture that keeps them as pets. If you were raised in China, you’d be eating dogs and cats like everyone else. If you lived in a culture where cannibalism was acceptable, you’d be eating humans. We all have the same desire to live and be free and happy. Let live and live – go vegan.

          • Steve Bakewell

            It has nothing to do with culture,its just evolution.. cats&dogs have been our furry little buddies for quite a while and believe it or not only certain species are self-aware.

            IDK about cats about from my personal experience i can tell you dogs are extremely faithful and they can understand human emotions that’s why i value them way more than just lobsters&chickens!

            A quick list animals that can empathize with humans :-
            1)Dogs/Cats
            2)Elephants
            3)Dolphins/Whales
            4)Horses
            5)Great Apes(obviously)

            I know i’m missing some but this is pretty much why i value dogs more than crabs&chickens.

          • Matthew DeLucia

            You you ever spent any time with the animals that you eat? You’d come to realize that they are very empathetic as well. Pigs are support lovable and intelligent, as much as any dog or cat. Chickens are quite curious and enjoy spending time with others of their kind, dust bathing and grazing for food. Chickens have also been known to form emotional attachments with their caregivers at animal sanctuaries, following them around. They also enjoy being gently stroked. Cows are typically docile creatures and enjoy the same freedom that you’d value.

            You are rationalizing up an argument to defend your consumption of these animals. You speak of evolution, so take the next step forward and stop consuming animals and their products when we live in a world where that is no longer necessary.

          • Steve Bakewell

            “You’d come to realize that they are very empathetic as well”
            No they’re not.. only Dogs are.. dogs follow you around and comfort you when you’re sad.

            “Pigs are support lovable and intelligent, as much as any dog or cat”
            No pigs are overweight,unruly and impossible to actually be domesticated as a “Pet”.. common pig’s evolutionary purpose is to be food for humans that’s it.

            “we live in a world where that is no longer necessary”
            actually no it is very necessary,it is impossible for all the 7 billion+ humans to healthily live on vegan diets(i’m just assuming you don’t support vegetarian diets).

            and also farming vegetables also kills more animals as well.

          • VSResident

            Actually, there is no way we can feed the growing world population on meat and dairy products, especially since the population is expected to grow to almost 10 billion by 2050. As it is, the farming operations we have are killing the environment between all the animal waste (see: animal waste pits) and the major clearing of rainforests to grow crops for livestock or to be used as grazing, and all the water and resources it takes to create meat and dairy. It takes 1000 gallons of water to produce just 1 gallon of milk. Think about that. As the population increases, the world needs a vegan diet more than ever. The UN recently recommended it and many studies have shown that we are in a situation of massive depletion of resources and of the environment, and that a change in diet would benefit everybody. If we fed people the crops we feed to livestock, there would be no world hunger and there would be plenty to go around with just a fraction of water usage and pollution. What we are doing right now makes no sense and is not working- we are on a sinking ship. As it is, there is world hunger and massive malnutrition, and here in the West, people are dropping dead from clogged arteries and strokes, so meat and dairy aren’t doing anybody any favors. The world could quite happily survive on a plant based diet, and in fact, many cultures do just that with no ill effects.

          • Steve Bakewell

            I never said meat&dairy products alone could feed the world population.. we also need industrial agriculture(AKA killing wild animals to make more agriculture land),ironically you’d drive pigs,chickens&cows to extinction if we stop eating them.

            “the world needs a vegan diet more than ever”
            Except only like 20% of the world can actually afford a vegan diet.

            LOL and what is a gallon? i’m not american plz use Litre.

            “we are in a situation of massive depletion of resources and of the environment,”
            and how does vegan diet stop industrial agriculture again? if anything i only see vegan diet forcing industrial agriculture to the max.

            “If we fed people the crops we feed to livestock”
            Whoa whoa what? i’m pretty sure that part requires the developed countries giving food for FREE to 3rd world countries FOREVER.

            “just a fraction of water usage and pollution”
            LOL industrial agriculture says hi!

            “What we are doing right now makes no sense”
            Exactly! we need to stop whining about the ethnics of killing farm animals that were bred FOR the sole purpose of being eaten and instead of focus on how we can balance our meat,dairy&crop consumption to better minimize the damage to the environment and also feed food to as many people on earth as possible(That includes all poor people who can’t afford Vegan smoothies and shiz!).

            “there is world hunger and massive malnutrition”
            and increased Industrial agriculture solves world hunger how?

            “so meat and dairy aren’t doing anybody any favors”
            Neither are the fertilizers,pesticides,vegetable oils,the refined sugars&grains and the everyday poison found in processed Vegan foods..

            The vegan delusion is hilarious.. it is literally IMPOSSIBLE to actually farm organic VEGAN food for 7+ Billion humans on earth yet you suggest veganism as a “Healthy/environment friendly” diet for EVERYONE on earth? BLA HA HA HA!

          • Breda Bree

            absolute bullshit in every way but im sure you lack the intelligence to comprehend.

          • BenDoverUranus

            Nice argument.

          • Piperlee

            Her point is well-taken, Steve. You make untrue statements and then insist you’re making sense. Whether you really believe those wild assertions or you’re just a troll who likes the negative attention is the question. Either way, poor guy.

          • Shellie belly

            Yeah actually they are right, you sound like a neanderthal to me. And I’m not even vegan. It looks like you’re just typing to see yourself put out words, like you know none of it makes any sense and you are just trying to piss people off. anyone who thinks vegans live off smoothies is a idiot. And to think that you couldn’t afford that lifestyle over the meat of style makes them the same. Yes it is more difficult to adjust to a vegan lifestyle after having a meat lifestyle. But I’m pretty positive that I could give myself a weeks worth of vegan beans lentils starch and veggies off what I would pay for one shit cancer heaping meal from any shitty number off a fast food chain menu And feel way better about what I eat mentally and physically.

          • BenDoverUranus

            So stating my opinions&views in a civil rational manner is “Pissing off People” EH!? well OKAY then!

            When random people bombard me with ad hominems actually pissing ME off in the process are “right” wow sound logic! Lynch mobs use the same logic too.

            And to think that you couldn’t afford that lifestyle over the meat of style makes them the same
            WOW.. talk about point going over your head.. i was talking about 3rd world countries… i don’t care about a select few individuals i’m talking about the fantasy global Vegan Diet and how its realistically possible to avoid ALL animal products.

          • Rachel Rose Feldman

            Have you ever lived in a developing country? They CAN’T AFFORD MEAT. In fact, when it’s used, it is only utilized as flavoring (clippings of flavorful organs) or a single chicken used to feed a family of 10 on an important holiday. Where as in our “developed world” we eat meat for EVERY meal EVERY day.

          • Asterisk

            Uh…I live in a developing country. Over here, meat and animal product are aspects of every meal. In fact, I live right up the street from a slaughterhouse that brings a lot of business into town. I don’t know where you live, but please don’t presume to speak for all developing countries.

          • Rosa Borisova

            Sadly the developing countries blindly are imitating the horrendous, self-destructive Animal Agriculture. Many years ago most countries there was practically very little or no animal products at all. Right now Animal Agriculture is one of the worst polluter on Planet. When we eat, wear and use animal products we create, encourage, allow and promote deforestation, hunger, wild life extinction, pollution, global warming, violence and diseases. No one needs to kill others in order to live well, eat healthy, be healthy, wealthy, proud and happy. Please watch on youTube to google: Food Choices, Europe’s Dark Secrets, Best speech Ever, evolve.com, earthsafe.org, Uprooting The UK’s leading Causes Of Death with Dr. Michael Greger, One Green Planet, veganstreet.com, 2 1/2 Million Years The Bulk Lived On Starch Based Diets, The Food We Were Born To Eat,

            http://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-role-of-bovine-leukemia-virus-in-breast-cancer/

            http://nutritionfacts.org/video/how-much-cancer-does-lunch-meat-cause/

            http://nutritionfacts.org/video/breast-cancer-survival-butterfat-and-chicken/

            http://nutritionfacts.org/video/eggs-choline-and-cancer/

            http://www.today.com/health/eating-you-alive-new-film-claims-plant-based-foods-could-t107610

            https://www.facebook.com/plantbasednews/videos/1789720841281012/

          • Brian Lesko

            You are really embarrassing other vegans like me. We got your point after the first 2 or 2 of your 100 comments. Your narcissism really shows.

          • Piperlee

            I’m not pissed off, Steve. Trolls are a fact of life. It’s you who has to live with the icky personality.

          • Rachel Rose Feldman

            Wow, you know animal products are a tertiary form of energy right? Meaning that they require 1000 times more energy and resources to produce? Also, meat and dairy ARE the most expensive items on ones grocery list, and vegetable are the cheapest. Please enllighten us all on where you live where this is NOT true.

          • BenDoverUranus

            Poultry is cheaper( i’ve already mentioned this in one of my posts) chickens take up like 10X less resources&land than cow meat and they don’t release methane gas so win-win here.

            And plz do tell me how you’re planning to deal with pollution caused by Extensive industrial agriculture when ALL animal products are banned..

          • Grace

            Actually, allow me to kindly shut down literally everything you’ve just said. I would call you a pig, but I’m a vegan, and wouldn’t insult an animal like that.

            1 The reason vegan diets are so expensive is because nobody IS vegan, and so since vegan food is in low demand, less people pay to produce it, so it is more expensive to make and therefore to buy. Basically, if everyone were vegan, vegan food would be exceedingly cheap.

            2 The resources currently used to pay for food being fed to farm animals could be put into growing food for humans.

            3 Wouldn’t it just be a shame to help out people in need by giving them food without killing other creatures.

            4 see #1^^^

            5 How would you feel if someone came to your house one day and told you that you only existed so some big giant somewhere could eat you, and then you were taken away and you had your skin boiled off while still fully conscious?

            6 see #3^^^

            7 In general, vegan foods have less preservatives, pesticides, etc. than your McDonalds French fries would because most vegans are conscientious about what their food is doing to the environment.

            There we go. I’m pretty sure everything I’ve just said discredited all of your words in some way. Now, please do the world a favor and stop speaking out of your ass. You’ve come to a vegan forum and argued with everyone here who believes in this. What did you expect would happen? Thanks for wasting my time.

          • Runner

            I also use the alien card; it’s when I say; “ok when aliens arrive and they start eating people; will you still consider the natural order to be right?”

          • BenDoverUranus

            2) Eh, yes! We just need to minimize growing of bigger livestock like Cows! problem solved i guess.

            5) Don’t humanize animals!

            7) Oh sure! come back to me later when you figure out a way to all organic crops which could sustain the increasing 9 Billion+ human population. I think you’d get a nobel prize for that!

            “What did you expect would happen?”
            Nothing extraordinary! I just expected people to be reasonable&mature and you fucking lunatics are the exact opposite of that.

            “Thanks for wasting my time.”
            That’s my line!

          • Tracey Frebertshauser

            Humans are animals

          • MsFelix50

            A vegan diet consists of vegetables, fruits, and grains, but vegans don’t want to eat like that. They want to maintain the same hearty diet, but don’t want to make the effort. So you have things…like..tofu burgers (which can wrack up your grocery bill.) It’s not that expensive to go to the grocery store and buy frozen vegetables or frozen fruits. In my town, you can get a loaf of bread for two dollars. That’s not that expensive. Vegans want variety, but they are taking a significant variety out of their diet simply be becoming vegans. Our instant gratification society cannot stand the thought that something is inaccessible to them even if it is a personal choice or value system that they’ve created. “I know I’m a vegan, but I want a burger!!”

            And this is exactly one reason why vegans drive me crazy. If you were to go all out and self sacrifice and cut back, I would have nothing but respect for you. Vegans, like most ideological people, do what is convenient for them.

          • Brian Lesko

            Please do not generalize. As a vegan, I can honestly tell you I am more in the self-sacrificial category.

          • Will Freeman

            Yeah – I’m the same (though only vegetarian). I really miss the delicious taste of meat… and maybe I’d find being healthier less hassle if I were an omnivore. But those are sacrifices I’m happy to make so less animals die to keep me alive. And I’d never push that on anyone.

          • Piperlee

            You’re actually kind of crazy, Steve. I see that now. Reading down the comments, I’d only thought you ignorant, until seeing this comment. Manson said something similar: “Bad is not good and good is not bad.” I know you’re not American and you may not know about this hideous man, but you can use the internet to write these silly comments, and you can use the internet to look up gallon-to-liter conversion, and you can use the internet to look up Charles Manson. What you can’t use the internet for is to fix your disordered thinking.

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          • Piperlee

            Thank you, Rosa.

          • Vivi Siow

            ‘Thank you’ for insulting people and being dismissive of a vegan whoes health was slowly deteriorating because of vegan diet,and still encouraging said person to continue?Even when the Doctors and Nutritionist told that it’s not good for that person to continue?
            You would support someone like that?
            And you would support someone who spams,repeats the same thing over and over,etc?
            Sorry,but my opinion is that maybe you need to go see…I dunno. Someone.

          • Piperlee

            You’re fighting awfully hard to keep the status quo, Vivi, which entails the suffering of billions of animals AND the humans who eat them. I doubt you’ll listen to me, but how about him:

            “When we kill animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings, who are natural herbivores.”
            ~ Dr. William C. Roberts, Editor-in-Chief, The American Journal of Cardiology

            Or him:

            “Our study suggests that the closer one approaches a total plant food diet, the greater the health benefit…. It turns out that animal protein, when consumed, exhibits a variety of undesirable health effects. Whether it is the immune system, various enzyme systems, the uptake of carcinogens into the cells, or hormonal activities, animal protein generally only causes mischief.”
            – Dr. T. Colin Campbell, Author, The China Study

            Or him:

            “A plant-based diet cannot be patented, so it is of absolutely no interest to the pharmaceutical complex. It is an enormous threat, in fact, and huge campaigns are waged to keep us distracted and believing that complex carbohydrates are bad for us while animal protein is absolutely necessary, and that science can save us from diabetes, cancer, and the other diseases brought on by our callous domination of animals for food.”
            – Dr. Will Tuttle, Author, The World Peace Diet

            And him again:

            “It is well known that animal foods are heavily contaminated with viruses and bacteria such as salmonella, listeria, E. coli, campylobacter, and streptococcus, which can be harmful if not fatal to people, especially given our already overworked immune systems. The urea in animal flesh also contains toxins. It has furthermore recently been shown that cooked animal flesh contains heterocyclic amines, which are carcinogenic chemicals that form during the cooking process. Thus, by not cooking flesh enough, we may expose ourselves to salmonella, E. coli, and other pathogens, and by cooking it, we end up eating cancer-causing chemicals formed by heating the animal fat.”
            – Dr. Will Tuttle, Author, The World Peace Diet

          • Vivi Siow

            Yes,and so some of you can actually be healthy by following a total vegan diet.
            My qualms with you?
            That person just told people that it didn’t work out for her/him. Then rosa comes along and is pretty dismissive about someone’s HEALTH. If you all are going to get people to join you and turn vegan,that is fine. But if you’re going to keep telling them to keep going on despite the fact that they get weaker Everyday,you’re a different kind of cruel.
            Again,did you read what I wrote to you? I told you that you were supporting someone who literally did the above.

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          • Rosa Borisova

            If you do your home work you will know the facts. Right now 65+ land and 195 billion marine animals are raised and killed for food we don’t need and it’s not ours to eat. America alone can feed 10 billion people. We are only 7 billion. Yet, 80 % of the farm lands are used to feed farmed animals instead of feeding people. As far as “extinction of chickens, pigs and cows is concerned you have nothing to worry about. Not everyone will turn vegan over night. It will take time. The less demand for animal products less animals born. And consequently pollution, deforestation, hunger, wild life extinction, diseases, global warming and violence will stop. Animals have lived in perfect harmony and balance with each-other and Nature for centuries without our crippled, greedy, foolish, selfish needs, egos and ideas. Without extinction or overpopulation. If we return few of them back to the wild eventually everything will return to normal. If too many farmed animals are still left they can go to sanctuaries. Eating someone else’s corpses, milk and eggs is weird and even worst than pesticides alone. Hormones, antibiotics, GMO and pesticides too are given to farmed animals. Planing our own veggies, fruits, nuts and seeds is another option to avoid harmful pesticides. Or buy organic as much as we can. You can deny plant- based life-style( veganism) all you want but the facts are there. We can’t change the truth but the truth can change our bad, outdated, self-destructive, absurd, unnecessary habits and crippled “traditions”. To know better and do better watch on

            Netflix: Food Choices; Google or YouTube: Europe’s Dark Secrets, Best Speech Ever, How Not To Die; nutrition facts.org; What’s The Natural Human Diet; humane facts.org; evolve.com; earth safe.org; Dr. Collin Campbell – The China Study; meat-abolition.org; Beyond Carnism And Towards Rational. Most of the following banners have their own links for more info. It’s all up to you. Unless you know what “vegans” know you can’t say that is “delusional” because you will sound ridiculous and foolish. Thanks

          • eowiuhworighworighwrg

            I’ve heard the exact same argument from the meat-eater side. It’s all a matter of opinion. Did I mention, I LOVE chicken nuggets? :)

          • Olivia Gossett

            Do you just love bacon too? Read the article. Go hang with a few farmed animals before confidently posting such comments against people who care about the well being of such and all animals.

          • Vivi Siow

            If only you all stop posting comments against people who eat meat being animal abusers.

          • Piperlee

            It’s a matter of opinion if you are only interested in your own opinion. The UN has been warning for years that agribusiness is unsustainable. Animal abuse is also obviously a problem. You sound very young – too young to be so narrow-minded. Good luck to you.

          • Rosa Borisova
          • Rosa Borisova

            Ohh, did I mention “I’ve heard the exact the same argument from” rapist… They “love” raping? :)

          • Brian Lesko

            And did I mention you’re an insecure jackass?

          • http://www.teachingjoomla.com Norm Douglas

            Do you really like chicken nuggets? Do you know what’s in most of them?

          • Maniac_In_BlackⓋLittleItalyNY™

            “pigs are overweight, unruly”.. and humans aren’t ?.. what an idiotic statement. Do you also think all humans are empathetic ?.. because they’re not. I guess that makes it okay to treat them however others want though.. I also assume you think its okay to treat mentally disabled people however we want, since some lack empathy. You’re perfectly fine with eating empathic beings, so why not empathic humans ? But let me guess, because they’re in the same form as you (human form), it’s totally wrong. “common pig’s evolutionary purpose is to be food for humans that’s it.” What kind of oxy moron is that ? Are you f***ing retarded ?… Rhetorical question, don’t answer that. If you knew ANYTHING about evolution, you’d know that one being didn’t evolve just for another being to have control over. That’s like religious people thinking blacks were put here by a “god” just to be their slaves. & before you try to sound smart and reply to this, think about what the article said. Don’t let that ego get in the way to defend your actions.

            The last few paragraphs at the bottom of this link are for you.
            http://www.animalsaustralia.org/features/yulin-dog-eating-festival-to-begin.php?ua_s=e-mail
            “Scientists now know that cows have best friends; that sheep can learn to respond to their own name; that chickens exhibit cognitive abilities beyond that of young children; and that pigs show empathy and can play computer games designed for chimpanzees”

            “VSResident” said everything else that needed to be said.

          • Steve Bakewell

            “and humans aren’t ?”
            Well yeah but humans are also highly intelligent&resourceful,pigs on the other hand were bred to be overweight tasty meatsacks by us it is their evolutionary purpose!

            “Do you also think all humans are empathetic”
            No but i think that all bacon sandwiches are delicious! XD

            “I also assume you think its okay to treat mentally disabled people however we want”
            No because that’s not beneficial for our species even the chimps(aggressive apes like us)have shown that they treat mentally disabled chimps with care.

            “since some lack empathy”
            Ironically its the pigs that lack empathy.. if they could connect to humans emotionally like a dog can no way in hell would they be domesticated as food.. humans generally find dogs as loving&helping companions thus we refrain from eating them but pigs? fat pink juicy sacks of meat that burp are nothing but FOOD written all over it.

            Fuzzy puppy eyed loving companion > Fat ugly meatsacks that squeal.

            “because they’re in the same form as you (human form), it’s totally wrong”
            That and its not beneficial to our species.

            “you’d know that one being didn’t evolve just for another being to have control over”
            But it did evolve under the control of humans for a specific purpose… that’s evolution either way you look at it! Dogs,horses,bananas etc also have evolved under the influence of humans.

            “Scientists now know that cows have best friends”
            and i should care because? i care about the Elephants&whales as they’re highly INTELLIGENT beings almost as awesome as humans.

            “that chickens exhibit cognitive abilities beyond that of young children”
            Still not quite on the levels of whales&Elephants so my “give a fu*k” meter is down.. please try again later when you have an animal worth giving a Sh!t!

            I’m an omnivore i can EAT meat… if its not wrong for other animals to kill each other for meat(as they have been doing for MILLIONS OF YEARS BEFORE HUMANS EVEN EXISTED) why is it wrong when humans do the same? this is your STUPIDITY! food cycle includes animals eating animals.. humans just so happen to be at the top and i couldn’t give any less of a fu*k about the ones at the very bottom!

          • Maniac_In_BlackⓋLittleItalyNY™

            You keep mentioning whats not beneficial for our species… but you fail to mention all the bad things humans do that contribute to all whats wrong with the world and the environment. You think world wars or wars in general are “beneficial”?.. I don’t think you give a f*** about whats good for the human species or the world itself. As long as it benefits your big ass ego, its okay to do. & don’t try to deny it. Human activities are responsible for all problems in the world, except natural disasters. But as you probably know, humans are the number one reason for Increase in greenhouse
            gases in the atmosphere. But who cares right now, right ? All these things are NOT beneficial to our species (since that’s all you care about) but why is all this still happening ? Because humans are dumbasses, like yourself. Humans are the only living being that are “conscious” enough to make the right choices, but still fail to do that. You’re too focused on “what’s beneficial for humans” & totally forgetting where you are.. its called earth, and its not here just for you. Start focusing on what’s beneficial for the planet instead of the human race. Because without earth, we obviously wouldn’t be here. Don’t you understand that ? You’re a hypocrite. Instead of having the mindset, “Oh I care so much about humans, humans are the greatest thing to ever happen in the history of life. We have to protect our species. *throws garbage on ground*”… how about protecting what we live on, the natural world & its environment. Don’t ever call or consider your self to have empathy, because you are the exact opposite of it. You’ve proven that with your super flawed “logic” and you’re extremely blinded by it. Wild primates have more empathy then you do.

            “if its not wrong for other animals to kill each other for meat, why is it wrong when humans do the same?”..It’s not wrong for natural carnivores to eat meat because they HAVE to do it. Did you read that right, dumbass ? THEY HAVE TO DO IT…… do you understand ? five year old kids have more of a conscious then you do. We DONT need it or have to do it. If you think its so natural for you to eat meat, why don’t you eat it raw like REAL carnivores do ? Let me guess ..”I don’t have to eat raw meat because i’m at the top of the food chain” .. shut the f**k up. Why is it that when, say a wolf or any other natural carnivore, sees a dead carcass, they go up to it and start eating away.. but if a human comes across a carcass, we automatically plug our noses from the smell & don’t want anything to do with it ? Doesn’t that tell you anything?.. of course not, because “BACON IS JUST SO GOOD =D”… You’re NOT a natural carnivore, you’re an ego carnivore… Do you understand what that means ? ..It means you only eat for your ego & you’re eating meat in its unnatural form just to feed your delusional ways of thinking.. “Oh look at me, I’m big and strong because I’m at the top of the food chain because I eat greasy bacon! I’m so special! I love destroying the world!” That answers your idiotic question “if its not wrong for other animals to kill each other for meat, why is it wrong when humans do the same?” Do you understand now how stupid that question is ? No, of course you don’t. Don’t even reply to anything I said, you’ll just say something stupid.

            But answer this, since you supposedly like dogs.. If you had the choice to end the dog and cat meat trade, if that meant stop eating all meat, would you ? ..Say if the choice was on your shoulders, would you stop eating all meat to stop the killing of all the dogs and cats that are being killed just for unnecessary, selfish, & greedy reasons ?

          • Steve Bakewell

            “All these things are NOT beneficial to our species”
            Being the captain obvious you sure fail to realize that human species lives on this planet.

            “how about protecting what we live on, our real home”
            Oh sh!t you just opened my eyes capt.OBVIOUS! now what are your plans on stopping the evil industrial agriculture and also not starve entire 7 billion humans on earth in the process?

            “why don’t you eat it raw like REAL carnivores do?”
            Why don’t you eat raw plants like REAL herbivores do? LOL OWNED!

            “It means you only eat for your ego”
            No that’s what Vegans do.. morally self-righteous A-holes who think they’re better then everyone when in reality they’re just douchebags who are like this :-
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMTkedIUX8U&ab_channel=DomingoBuenastardes

            We normal meat eater&vegetarians don’t make a big deal out of the things we eat.

            “I’m so special! I love destroying the world”
            Sounds like vegans to me.. industrial agriculture destroys the world too but let’s not talk about that because that makes vegans look morally equal.

            Heck i actually sympathize with that Chinese woman who makes a living off of dog trade.. cus you know? i have something called a “human empathy”

            “you’ll just say something stupid”
            I highly doubt i could outdo you in that :D

            Say if the choice was on your shoulders, would you stop eating all meat to stop the killing of all the dogs and cats that are being killed just for unnecessary, selfish, & greedy reasons
            Oh that’s no fun. say the choice was on your shoulders would you stop consuming all the crops to stop the killing of the wild animals for farming?

          • Dermot

            Dude come on. Are you actually serious or are you a caricature of a brutish meat eater? It’s as simple as this: the only relevant criteria to consider when harming an animal is it’s ability to feel pain. If you’re against eating dogs and cats, then there’s no justification for eating pigs, cows, chickens, etc. The animal’s level of intelligence has nothing to do with it. But if you want to take intelligence into consideration, then look at the research being conducted on animal intelligence: pigs have been shown to be highly intelligent, as have cows, so there goes your excuse.

            Just bc humans artificially breeded animals to possess favorable characteristics for consumption, does not make it evolutionarily justifiable. That’s a prime example of circular logic: human beings breeded certain animals to eat, so it’s okay to eat certain animals bc they were breeded by humans for that purpose. Come on dude, put some thought into what you say.

            The bottom line is that you think the meat of certain animals tastes good and you don’t care if they have to suffer. It’s well within your legal right to continue eating meat, but please don’t delude yourse into thinking there’s any defensible reason; it’s for sheer taste.

          • Steve Bakewell

            the only relevant criteria to consider when harming an animal is it’s ability to feel pain
            I’m pretty sure there are ways to “Humanely” kill animals.

            then there’s no justification for eating pigs, cows, chickens, etc
            Yes there is.. Dogs,horses etc are PETS they serve us different evolutionary purpose livestock has evolved to serve the purpose of being food.. that’s how things work.

            have been shown to be highly intelligent, as have cows, so there goes your excuse
            I’ve been over this. pigs&cows are not highly intelligent animals like elephants,whales&apes.

            besides if they were then they wouldn’t be livestock in the first place and its just my opinion anyway i value Highly intelligent animals! doesn’t mean you should too you can eat whales like the japs do.. i’m not going to judge you.

            You’re still a homo sapien our ancestors survived on meat before we invented agriculture.

            does not make it evolutionarily justifiable
            Yes it does! its evolution one way or the other you’re DENYING SCIENCE if you think evolution is a mere suggestion and invalid!

            you don’t care if they have to suffer
            You mean the same way like you don’t care about Industrial agriculture killing MILLIONS of animals annually? yeah kinda like that :D but please don’t delude yourself into thinking that being a Vegan you’re not actually hurting animals.

          • Maria Fonseca

            For the life of me , i don`t know why people here are responding to your comments. You are a despicable, arrogant human being . I would ring your fucking neck if I ever met you. Ignorant asshole!

          • No need for a shallow grave

            Actually, Maria, Steve is very far from despicable and arrogant, in comparison to your personalized threat of violence. There has never been a more murderous group of people in history than self-appointed hall-monitor leftist harpies like you. EVER. 120 million dead humans in the 20th Century at the hands of “people” that thought wringing the neck of someone that disagreed with them was just dandy.

            Well, try this on for size: If I knew where you were, I would shoot you through the left eye socket with a .45 caliber handgun, gut you like the spoiled pig that you are, cover you in Yoshida’s teriyaki sauce, and then proceed to BBQ your carcass.

            Does it feel good to be threatened online?

            (no animals were harmed in this post)

          • Piperlee

            Wow, grave. You’re nuts. Possibly dangerous. Try to calm down, will you? For the sake or your family and friends, if not yourself.

          • Vivi Siow

            Why didn’t you say this to the person who threatened to wring someone’s neck over an opinion?

          • Runner

            do you think they should all consume meat of animals who died a natural death? I think it’s the best way of having them eat their muscles and veigns without having animals to be murdered.

          • Vivi Siow

            did you just say you’d kill someone? Now,what makes you different from the people who actually abused animals? Just because someone didn’t agree with your opinion,you gave yourself the right to kill someone else? Do you realise,just how absurd you’re being? People like you need some time in a jail,or maybe get a therapist. If you actually killed someone over an OPINION,I hope you went to jail,because clearly,you’re not suitable to living in peace.
            (Edited) The same goes to people who upvoted your comment. You guys are…total assholes to advocate the murder of someone over an opinion.

          • Maria Fonseca

            Maybe you need to mind your own business since you are not able to see the difference between using the term of ringing of the neck as a figure of speech to show anger, and meaning it literally. A little intelligence here would prevent the misinterpretation.

          • Vivi Siow

            If you wanted me to mind my own business,you should’ve muttered it offline instead of commenting online. Figure of speech or not,you insulted and threatened someone. I needed little intelligence to read what you typed,and the exact words was threatening to the person you replied to. If you are this violent online,I can only imagine how much more violent you are offline.

          • Rachel Rose Feldman

            So if a human thinks another human is stupid, should we kill and eat them too?

          • Runner

            human way to kill; you need to eat flesh of natural death cases. Learn to see the value of living beings, even spiders.

          • Vivi Siow

            I think you need to relax. You’re giving a reason for the vegans who insult people more reason to Attack you.

          • Amber Lataya Haynes

            You are a nutjob. People with brain cells, why are you arguing with a freak?

          • Steve Bakewell

            You vegan are the Ecoterrorist nutjobs! i’ve had just about enough with you people.. i’ve been rational&reasonable but all i keep getting is more&more bigoted replies! i have yet to find a modicum of reason&logic here.

            Screw this website! its filled to brim with circle-jerking moral bigots where no dissenting opinion is allowed.

          • Simon

            But you are a fucking douche

          • Steve Bakewell

            No fuck you asshole!

          • JC

            mate. you’re a fucking pleb. i pity whoever has to listen your drivel on a daily basis. you’ve obviously read this article and without a trace of irony have managed to encapsulate exactly the type of person it was referencing. worst of all you actually wrote “owned”. fucking laughable. anyone eating a vegan diet is TRYING to help. which from the sounds of things is more than you’ll ever accomplish in your life. your mud slinging/tit for tat responses are so thick. each person whose responded to you has tried using reason and posing questions and your fucking using emoticons such as :D hahahaha

          • BenDoverUranus

            WAA WAAA WAA.. cry some more.. buncha elitist self-righteous Vegan shit-stains..

            Vegan community represents approximately 0.1% of world’s population.. good luck with this elitist circle jerk of yours.

          • Vivi Siow

            Ok,stop. I understand you being mad,but insulting crosses the line.

          • Runner

            when the aliens land, and they start murdering whole continents of people and using them for food; will you still accept the natural order of hunter and prey? use your logic and realise you can eat meat from animals who died a natural death.

          • john vickers

            Are you really using a hypothetical argument of aliens invading the planet like a child

          • Piperlee

            Try speaking truth, Steve. Not only does it feel good, but it actually contributes to discourse.

          • Dot

            Amber, you should see the comments just like Steve’s on the petition site, care2. Every single article on the plight of animals hunted or raised for slaughter and the vegan and vegetarian diets brings out the vegan-hating loonies who actually seem to believe they are being persecuted by vegans! They even believe the World Health Organization is part of a vast vegan conspiracy to put in place the new vegan world order. It is paranoia that knows no bounds. You have to see these comments to believe them. They make Steve B. seem coherent. Yep. That bad!

          • glorija

            LOL u are an idiot.

          • BenDoverUranus

            Fuck you vegan asshole.

          • trucanadian

            Lol… bytch, ur de bloody gaY jackass here. Ur anti-vegan stances don’t even make sense. :-P

          • BenDoverUranus

            Its not my fault that you don’t have the brain to comprehend anything other than vegan propaganda.

          • Christos Asimakidis

            Man, this is probably the most ignorant comment ever..you must be really proud of yourself with so many accurate conclusions all by yourself…

          • Olivia Gossett

            Based on what? How many times have you spent time frame animals? How long have you maintained a vegan diet to realize others couldn’t survive on it?

          • Piperlee

            Steve, you make comments you can’t support with facts. Your experience of life is obviously quite limited. You talk about animals’ self-awareness, but you are very unaware of scientific reality.

          • Tracey Frebertshauser

            How does farming vegetables kill animals?

          • BenDoverUranus

            Dum dums, where you get the land to grow vegetables on? what do you think happened to the forests that was razed to grow food for you?

          • Tracey Frebertshauser

            There is plenty of land without killing anyone.

          • Tracey Frebertshauser

            Does your land have veggies growing on it? Does mine? Does hers, does his? No. I suggest to the psychopaths killing animals for land to please first try and have each homeowner and renter with land to grow their own veggies and the ones who do not own land will be assigned a partner to grow food with. Problem solved.

          • BenDoverUranus

            No, there isn’t! every year,every day more&more forests are being razed to make way for land for cultivation and building of cities.

          • Tracey Frebertshauser

            May all people wake up. Drop this dysfunctional system and find our communities again.

          • Dwayne Robbie

            Millions of people with domesticated pigs prove you have no idea what you are talking about. It takes less plants to feed the world than it does to feed extensive amounts of plants to animals, using many more resources to produce the end result, then feeding to humans (not to mention that meat and dairy are terrible for your health). Your logic is broken.

          • http://www.teachingjoomla.com Norm Douglas

            Can you provide a link to your research paper you no doubt worked on to arrive at your findings

          • john vickers

            Pigs will eat other animals as there being born

          • Dwayne Robbie

            Are you a pig?

          • john vickers

            No I’m better than pigs. Im actually lovable and intelligent and for this reason i dont charge other animals in labour attack and kill their semi-born babies to eat them in front of their mothers eyes and vegans try to say humans are the only animal capable of evil ps you are a moron

          • Dwayne Robbie

            ROFL People that call other people morons…… make themselves sound like morons.

          • Brian Lesko

            And the sooner one eats assholes like you, the better.

          • john vickers

            And you are the reason vegans are one of the most hated demographics in the world. You don’t like a fact put forward so you lash out with vulgar language and personal attacks maybe do the world a favor and start experimenting with wild mushrooms

          • Vivi Siow

            Do predators spend time having fun with the prey they’re going to eat?

          • Kate Marin

            Go away. These same trite remarks and tired arguments over and over are just…tiring

          • Steve Bakewell

            Well what am i supposed to say? you vegans make the same tired arguments over&over which i have already refuted like 10 comments ago.

          • Maniac_In_BlackⓋLittleItalyNY™

            “Why don’t you eat raw plants like REAL herbivores do? LOL OWNED!” Really ? .. Man, you’re an idiot. I do eat raw plants. I also eat raw fruits and vegetables in their natural state. I cant say the same for you. Have you ever heard of an apple ? What about bananas ? Carrots ?… All you have to do is pick an apple from the tree and its that simple. Its the most natural thing you can eat. Along with most of all other kinds of fruits & vegetables. Its not that hard to comprehend. I have a fruit tree in my yard that I pick from every year & eat the fruit raw, in its natural state. So I don’t know how you thought you were “owning” me.

            So according to you I’m eating for my ego by eating the most natural foods that exist ? mm, good to know.

            Here’s an article for all the other idiotic things you said. It covers the failing of the livestock system, land used for livestock feed & water usage. There’s really no point in posting it because you’ll just continue with your ignorant way of thinking.. & you’ll just totally ignore everything it says.

            http://www.onegreenplanet.org/environment/why-we-need-to-reduce-meat-consumption-for-the-planet/?utm_source=Green+Monster+Mailing+List&utm_campaign=3fda1be9aa-NEWSLETTER_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_bbf62ddf34-3fda1be9aa-106492005

            I could go on with you for months and not get anywhere so I’m out.

          • Steve Bakewell

            “I do eat raw plants.”
            Oh really? without any salt or condiments? without even cutting them? no i don’t think so! both cooked meat&vegetables are usually more healthy.

            “So I don’t know how you thought you were “owning” me.
            Technically i was talking about eating raw green plants not Fruits and really i don’t think all the 7 billion+ humans on earth have the luxury of growing fruits&vegetables in their garden..

            “All you have to do is pick an apple from the tree and its that simple
            All you have to do is go and hunt animals or buy some meat like your much more intelligent ancestors used to do its that simple!

            If your hard working ancestors knew their off-spring would end up as a pathetic vegan SJW they would cut their balls off and rip off their uterus! i know i would!

            I’m eating for my ego by eating the most natural foods that exist ?
            No you make a big deal out of eating something in general! it doesn’t matter what you eat.. you’re still acting as if you’re morally above everyone else by choosing a certain diet.. which is as stupid as it gets.

            “Here’s an article for all the other idiotic things you said”
            NO HOW ABOUT YOU first address the harms of industrial agriculture and the INCREASED industrial agriculture that will be brought by the reduction of the livestock?

            “I could go on with you for months and not get anywhere so I’m out.”
            TRANSLATION:I cannot refute the logical&rational points you said about Industrial agriculture&evolution of domesticated animals Steve i give up,

          • Ray Tiberius Adler

            This is why I think we should just eat people. No one will ever agree on which animal is too cute to slaughter, clearly us Vegans are guilty of equal slaughter through eating apples, so let’s eat people. They can tell us how they feel the entire process of being raised in the factory, we can fully explain how their sacrifice is important for us to keep having bacon, and we can get them to sign waivers at the time of slaughter.
            Of course we’d have to forcibly inseminate the females and then rip away the baby as soon as it’s born, for the milk on our cereal. Probably discard any newborn boys into some sort of jumbo grinder to liquefy them (they can then be mixed with corn and fed back to mom, very efficient that way).

            And before you make any argument against eating people, I’d like to point out that lions eat people so it’s part of nature. Also, if God didn’t want us to eat humans, then why are they made of meat.

          • Steve Bakewell

            “No one will ever agree on which animal is too cute to slaughter”
            It depends on culture and evolutionary we can clearly see which animals are meant to be eaten and which ones are meant to be petted.

            and how fu*k!ng psychotic do you have to be to equate MURDER&cannibalism with cattle slaughtering!?
            “Vegans are guilty of equal slaughter through eating apples
            Technically you are guilty of killing thousands of animals by making land for growing more of those tasty veggies.

            I love how there’s not one unbiased&neutral person on this website everyone here is just a bigoted nutjob eco terrorist who is impervious to reason&Logic..

          • Maria Fonseca

            Do you know that it`s a fact that stupid people don`t know they are stupid? Let me educate you, you`re stupid.

          • BenDoverUranus

            Yeah… i am STUPID! stupid enough to comment on a vegan cesspool where any dissenting opinions will be met with turd flinging vegan monkeys.

          • Maria Fonseca
          • BenDoverUranus

            Fuck off! why do you expect me to listen to anything to say when you don’t respect my opinion and views?

          • Maria Fonseca

            Very mature!

          • BenDoverUranus

            As mature as you were in your first reply to me.. gofuckyourself!

          • Maria Fonseca

            Thank you. Fuck you too.

          • Jeremy Svegan

            Pigs are the 4th most intelligent animal of earth (after dolphins, chimps, and elephants). They are smarter than dogs, cats, and even a 3 year-old child. They are compassionate and are able to understand and empathize with human emotion as well. They have a sophisticated cognitive ability, communicate using over 20 identified vocalizations, respond to their names, and can even be taught to play video games. And most importantly they feel both love and pain; they can suffer every bit as much as you and I. As another poster said, there is truly no difference. ;)

          • Steve Bakewell

            there is truly no difference
            Yes there is.. evolution tells us that difference you people just don’t want to look even when i spell it out to you guys.

          • Jeremy Svegan

            Actually it does. I pretty much spelled it out for you my friend. Sorry if it doesn’t make sense to you. Doesn’t really surprise me tho since pretty much nothing you’ve said has made sense. Just typical carnist rambling. Keep on defending animal abuse tho. It makes you look like a real winner! Your children must be proud. Peace.

          • Jeremy Svegan

            ..

          • Steve Bakewell

            You are just another one here to give me your statement not listen to my arguments but brush them aside as “ramblings” GTFO! i’m not here to listen your propaganda!

            ALL I ever did was present my opinion diplomatically and i get this shitstorm of insulting,rude&preachy replies!.. I’M SICK OF THIS!

            Anyone replying to me next only has 2 options :-
            1)Address my points and behave maturely

            2)If you want to give me your statement,insult me and preach your vegan shit for 99th time kindly introduce double barrels to your temple cus i’m NOT NOT INTERESTED IN THAT!

            GOT THAT!?

          • Jeremy Svegan

            I addressed your statement, quite clearly in fact, when I originally responded to this post. What else would you like me to address? Quite honestly, it’s kind of hard to take you seriously when all you are doing is using tired, outdated arguments to defend animal abuse and your selfish addiction, rehashing the same illogical, hypocritical hyperbole that every other carnist makes, and failing even when attempting Tu Quoque. And I’ve been nothing but mature. You’re the one calling me a “biggot” for no apparent reason and slinging random insults, not me. That’s not very mature. But still, expect nothing more in return than you give either. You are the one YELLING!!! my friend. And making ridiculous claims like “you don’t give a rat’s ass about animal suffering!”. Yeah, I suppose that’s why I’ve dedicated the last 20 years of my life to activism on behalf of the animals and fighting to end institutionalized animal abuse? And “anyone who doesn’t think like you people is THE ENEMY.” No, it’s not so much if someone thinks exactly like me, but people who knowingly fund, support, and participate in systematic animal abuse and the of killing helpless animals simply for pleasure and enjoyment, like yourself, are indeed the opposition. But you’re not even being original. Your arguments and justifications are literally on the 1st grade level of carnism and have all been widely debunked eons ago. It’s hard to even take them seriously, let alone be bothered to respond to any of them. Quite honestly, you should really do a little reading up before attempting to debate in a forum such as this. And I can tell by the posts you’ve already made that you do not respond to facts or logic, so what exactly are you expecting? This ain’t my first rodeo, and I know when a debate is worth the effort. And quite honestly, your less than coherent and intelligent responses are telling me everything I need to know. The fact is once you know the facts, this isn’t even a debate. But when someone isn’t even receptive to the truth, there’s no point in expending precious energy to fight a battle that doesn’t matter. There are others out there that don’t run from cognitive dissonance or attempt to trivialize undeniable facts in the standard carnist fashion, and instead choose to embrace their compassion and consider other valid viewpoints with an open mind. And unless you are willing to show others that you indeed are willing to do so, then please don’t expect anyone to enter into any sort of serious debate with you. (Singular Truth: When you choose to do one thing, you are choosing not to do another.) I honestly think you should read the following article start to finish before even attempting to debate any informed vegan: “Eating Animals: Addressing Our Most Common Justifications” http://freefromharm.org/eating-animals-addressing-our-most-common-justifications/ (Not surprisingly, even tho 98% of the population regularly consumes animals and their secretions, there are no equivalent articles of any credibility that attempt to defend all of the justifications, non-existent benefits, and excuses that people commonly use to justify animal abuse and their cruel, selfish addictions.) If after reading it you however still feel you have an even remotely valid argument, then I will happily put it to rest. It’s what I do. But in the mean time, this Sidekick most definitely addresses your original statement which I first responded to. Peace.

          • BenDoverUranus

            What else would you like me to address
            >The pollution&animal deaths caused by industrial agriculture and the ramifications of a GLOBAL vegan diet would have on this.
            >How 7 billion people would be sustained on a “Vegan” diet.
            >The chemicals they put on Vegan Processed foods.
            >The symbiotic evolution of Dogs&Humans and compared to the evolution of pigs.
            >Moral Subjectivity
            >Everyone’s unwarranted hostility towards me just for having a different viewpoint!
            >Your hypocritical statement that you were nothing but mature&logical and then proceeding make personal insults!

            “and failing even when attempting Tu Quoque”
            How am i failing? your reply is in Black and my reply is right below and by the time i replied to you i was BEYOND sick&tired of insults so excuse me if i was a little rude! i wasn’t specifically talking about you.. i was addressing everyone of my previous replies!

            “You are the one YELLING”
            BECAUSE I AM TIRED OF AD-HOMINEM! i’m tired of the close-minded attitude of people here who can’t tolerate a dissenting opinion.. let alone ADDRESS my arguments in a rational way.

            and at least i’m persevering to have a rational discourse here! unlike everyone else here.
            “all been widely debunked eons ago”
            then why don’t you refute me? just address the points i’ve underlined and i’ll be happy and i’ll genuinely respect you! but no you can’t that do that can you?

            “you’ve already made that you do not respond to facts or logic”
            I’ve been arguing EVOLUTION and Industrial agriculture this whole time! if that’s not factual&logical then what is? has it EVER occurred to you that NOT EVERYONE on this planet shares the same moral values as you do? and that morals are SUBJECTIVE and not ABSOLUTE?

            “The fact is once you know the facts, this isn’t even a debate”
            “FACTS” about what? i know the meat industry&stuff i am against that sure but i’m not against the healthy organic meat.

            and i’ve read your article and it still doesn’t necessarily make a very strong argument its mostly based on moral values that i don’t fundamentally agree with as i don’t view all animals as “equals” just cus they can feel teh “pain”.

            also that article fails to make a counterargument to people losing jobs.. it just says that that many people won’t lose jobs in the meat industry well what about tanneries,dairy and other industries? and Vegan dies is luxurious&scarce for people in 3rd world countries!.

          • YouArntTheFirstToKnowItAll

            I like
            how the ‘Egg’ Person is thoroughly showing the signs of nearly every one of
            these psychological signs of distress and defense mechanisms mentioned in the
            article. Including stating facts with no standing evidence that also can be proved
            wrong by SOOO many studies. :P

            As far as a Neutral post, I can see that. How come no one told Mr. Egg.
            “You are entitled to your opinion!”

            Not only are you entitled, you and your clogged arteries and colon, with your
            increased risk of cancer, heart disease (and plenty of other health risks and
            diseases all linked to processed foods but mainly meat and dairy) can eat all
            the meat you damn well please.

            It would
            be a waste of the animals that have already been tortured and brutally murdered
            for your self-righteous taste buds and ‘I’ve been raised this way so I’m right
            and this is how it has to be’ syndrome.

            (ehem. Racism, Homophobes, Religions still slicing off pieces of babies for no
            reason, You trust the same govnt. [that shipped LSD, Cocaine and Heroin to our
            troops as well as they used to sell it over the counter and even prescribe them
            to babies] to tell you not only what you should eat but to give you healthy
            food when they make so much money off of the cheap shit that’s killing
            you?[Which if you are so far behind that you don’t even know that simple,
            little piece, you need to read a history book and just google some old pharmacy
            ads and check who owns what in our country. Etc. All public knowledge])

            I think it’s funny you bring up our ancestors while we are constantly proving
            them wrong and improving technology, science and medicine all of the time. As
            well as all of the conclusions to studies that we have finally been able to
            make since we’ve had the time to test what the benefits and horrible cons
            to these processes are.

            Also, I’m
            going to guess you live in a city because in my farming town, many people have
            animals they raised for slaughter as well as pets. Pigs are one of the favorite
            pets I’ve seen because of their compassion and some are smarter than their dogs.
            Where your logic makes no sense to me is a dog feels just as much pain if you
            stab it in the neck as if I stabbed you in the neck. And guess what, other
            animals, especially mammals, will feel the exact same pain. They may not say
            ow, but they can scream and screech and cry. In pain and emotional distress.
            (You do know we aren’t the only mammals at least, right? Dogs, Pigs, Cows,
            Tigers, Foxes, Horses Pretty much anything that births its babies and has tits
            to drink milk from is a mammal. And each and every one will scream when you
            stab it in the neck.)

            I changed
            from eating steak/jerky/hotdogs/bacon/chicken/venison/fish not to please or
            annoy you. Not to tell you not to eat it. I didn’t give a fuck about you or
            your feelings at all when I made this decision for myself. I stopped because if
            you just took the time to do a little research on the things you so strongly
            oppose, you’ll realize you don’t have scientific justification on just about
            every point you’re making. I’m laughing as I scroll through your post going:
            Wrong. Wrong. I just read about that this morning. Hahaha, awe look he’s
            getting angwy. Wrong. Oh well, that’s finally one good point. Wrong. . I’m not
            saying research :Why is Vegan Good: or Vegan Vs Omnivore I’m saying REAL
            research. What foods give you the most nutrients? What foods are most linked to
            cancer, while which foods have been shown to even put cancer, high cholesterol
            and other serious illnesses in remission? Look at the studies of CAESIN, and
            the new studies they’ve been able to do after fighting the big corporations to
            just figure out what they are even putting in our food, so that we can begin
            testing on the short and long term effects of these things you don’t even know
            you’re eating?

            Look up in Bio 101 when they showed us the food pyramid. Which explains why you
            get a crap amount of protein and other vitamins and minerals from plants compared
            to the ones you get from animals because GUESS WHERE THAT COW GOT ITS PROTIEN?!
            Yupp the damn greens it ate which, if you took bio, you know that it loses 90%
            of the Nutritional value the higher up in the pyramid you eat from. Which,
            sadly, is one of the reasons why manufactured meat IS so unhealthy now because
            they aren’t even eating healthy grass or plants anymore to get those nutrients
            so it’s actually all for pretty much nothing but the taste, to get fat and clog
            arteries. Importantly! Always check the sources. For your cause news and
            opposing view news. There is always plenty of BS on both sides.

            Que in
            the idiot on Maury who doesn’t want to accept the 99.9% Positive DNA Test and
            that the baby IS in fact, his. Instead he begins screaming, “There’s Still 1%!
            There’s Still 1%” Why? Because fuck logic! That’s why! When it becomes an emotional
            argument, facts get lost, blurred and made up. I don’t want to hear that only 6/10
            studies said you can get cancer from eating _______ I believe the other 4 so I’m
            fine. Yea…Lemmie get your number, I’ll hit you up in about 12 years.

            LOOK UP factory farming videos. Watch Food Inc or Earthlings. These and other
            documentaries are things that if you can waste time typing pages like me, you
            should spend some time researching your opposition. Not simply oppose them. And
            you would be able to better defend your ideas while showing the flaws in
            theirs. (Trust me, in law it works all the time). If you think it is all
            poppycock by all means, go out do your own research and prove us and all of
            these highly educated doctors and nutritionists that aren’t being paid off by
            the same large companies, wrong! [But there’s always there’s always the saying.
            If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em ;) ]

            Or, just
            admit you do not give a crap about the tortured animals, the sick conditions
            they are in, what they are pumped full of or how they are killed. If humans
            were smart, we would all grow our own food but 1. We are lazy fucks and 2. The
            big guys with the $$$ make sure you don’t really have time or space for that
            anyways. Admit that eating meat is just easier and you’ve never even looked
            into the 80,000+ Edible plants and awesome tasty foods and things that don’t
            require something being tortured and/or killed. Instead you’ve always just
            searched or thought up REASONS and excuses to oppose it and hate everything to
            do with it? Because torturing another species, is not any kind of natural.

            Oh here
            we go. Yea, animals kill and eat other animals for food. They have the jaws and
            claws and powerful muscles to take these animals down and the right insides to
            break it down raw. You want to talk natural? We have the muscles to pick
            fucking grapes and just because one of our ancestors went “Hey I saw that lion
            eat a Gazelle. Let me try!”(I’m imagining the funny news comic of how many
            times humans failed while trying to get their first taste of meat after
            watching animals. Then they would have to slowly understand their wimpy hands
            and teeth won’t work so they would have to create their own weapons and versions
            of animal’s defenses.) It does not make it logical, natural or okay. If
            anything, go kill your meat with your hands and eat it raw and try to tell me
            how naturally awesome it is. Phsyco-Sociopath.

            In nature
            no other species forces another animal to fuck or just rapes them with a stick,
            steals their babies and kills them to drink milk from their mother’s tits. (Jeez.
            Yes, some female calves are taken to be raised as dairy cows, but they have a
            close gestation period to humans and can be forced to breed right after the
            last one, MOST are either killed shortly after birth, or chained to a post for
            a year and then killed for tender veal) Not to mention sending live, male baby
            chickens into a grinder to sell off to your favorite restaurants as Chicken
            Nuggets and “Tender White Meat”. Heh. Ew. All in the name of ‘They are dumb.
            They only scream for a minute. Trust me, you’d only cry for a moment too,
            depending if you went in head first or not.) Where I will get real, is if
            you’ve ever killed anything in your life, Human or otherwise, you know it is
            never humane. You can think shooting an animal and letting it slowly bleed out
            is humane. If you are a great shot you can make it short, but not right. But if
            you don’t get that first shot it will gurgle, cry, feel it’s life slipping away
            painfully and cry for it’s loved ones just as any human. But most are killed by
            electric shock and getting their throats slit, which no matter how you view it,
            will always be inhumane and painful. And if you think otherwise you can either
            try the methods on yourself to prove us how painless it is or, look up those
            graphic videos that you assume don’t exist. You will find these traits you
            assumed animals didn’t have and if you have a heart (Which I don’t think your
            are a shitty person, I simply think you are passionate about your beliefs ,
            they will help you to begin to understand. And if not, I’m with that other guy,
            we should just start eating each other and leave the animals who have no choice
            and wouldn’t deserve it.

          • BenDoverUranus

            >proved wrong by SOOO many studies
            Well be my guest! i’ve yet to encounter someone who actually does address my points,i’m still waiting for explanations on how a full on vegan diet(not vegetarian) could sustain billions of humans and also not cause environmental pollution by the industrial agriculture.

            >diseases all linked to processed foods but mainly meat and dairy
            Yes i am totally against processed foods and that also includes Vegetarian&Vegan Foods you can get on the supermarket not just meat&dairy.

            and i’m all for stopping the horrible treatment of animals in factory farms(those documentaries are mostly from USA so i don’t know about other countries) i’m just what you guys would call a “speciest”.. i just see nothing wrong with eating meat from animals that our ancestors have been raising for a millennia.. its a big part of our culture by now!

            also just think of all the jobs that would be lost! it would really suck for those people if their govt’s decided to go full on vegan don’t ya think?

            >In natureno other species forces steals their babies and kills them to drink milk from their mother’s tits.
            actually the in nature babies are the most easy targets for predators and as for as milk goes.. blame our lactose tolerance no other species but humans have it! its all evolution’s fault!

          • Piperlee

            I’m really glad to read that you oppose the horrible treatment of animals in factory farms, Steve. There is hope for you. Your next point though? It’s not a defense. People have also committed murder (of humans, I mean) since the beginning. Doesn’t make it right.

          • Maria Fonseca

            Who do you think you are? You small minded little man. You are nothing. In this world you are no more important then the mosquito that sucks your blood.

          • Steve Bakewell

            EVOLUTIONARY BIOLOGY is a “typical carnist rambling” you Vegans are one step away from forming a religion!
            >Keep on defending animal abuse tho
            Except you moral hypocrite! INDUSTRIAL AGRICULTURE harms animals as well!!

            You people are such bigoted&close-minded hateful freaks.. anyone who doesn’t think like you people is THE ENEMY.

            You know what? you don’t give a rat’s ass about animal suffering! you people just want feel morally superior to others.

          • TR

            About industrial agriculture: That’s one more reason to be vegan. It takes much more to grow plants for animals we eat than to grow them for humans.
            Also, pointing out someone to be hypocrite is a fallacy since it has nothing to do with the argument itself: Even if I killed humans, my allegation that killing humans is wrong wouldn’t be any less true.
            About evolution: Breeding is not evolution (google evolution.) Saying eating animals is okay cause that’s what they are bred for is another fallacy: a circular reasoning. (google that.) In this case, something is justified by the fact that that something is done. (Eating animals is okay cause that’s what people do.)
            Istead of arguing eating animals is fine cause they are bred for that, you need to argue why it is fine to breed animals for it.
            Veganism wouldn’t solve world hunger, probably. But it would be one step closer to it, cause by that there would be enought natural resources to feed everyone. Problem would still be the unfair distribution of food though. Any way, even if veganism didn’t end world hunger it would not serve as an argument against veganism/In favor of eating meat. (Not unless it would make it worse.)

          • BenDoverUranus

            Industrial agriculture is also very polluting and damaging to the environment and our health and how much pollution would it cause if humans SOLELY depended on plants like how the vegas suggest?

            pointing out someone to be hypocrite is a fallacy
            No i don’t think so!

            Breeding is not evolution
            I don’t think you know the meaning of either Evolution or Breeding,breeding is a part of evolution! natural selection yada-yada.

            something is justified by the fact that that something is done
            That’s not circular reasoning.. that’s just a justification! circular reasoning is something that validates itself by validating itself.

            that there would be enough natural resources to feed everyone
            LMAO no there isn’t… organic crops can only sustain a 1/10th of human population on earth.

          • Jonathan Derick Holmes

            To be fair, I actually am hoping you’re right mate. I am vegan as a consequence of being a utilitarian. I used to eat meat, enjoyed seafood quite a bit. I also however, don’t agree with the “Organic” craze. As biochemistry minor, I’ve yet to study any advantage of organic over conventional produce. Bakewell is right in pointing out how flawed organic is. I am also a proponent of science however and have personally worked with chemicals enough to not be scared of anything I can’t pronounce. Biotechnology is key to helping is solve our food crisis.

            I also agree that it is not inherently wrong to kill. Life is not absolutely sacred. You must account for context. Were we hunter gatherers, I’d have no issue in joining Bakewell’s hunt. It is due to the consequences that out current meat producing system has, that I hold veganism to produce more net good for everyone. I am not speciesist, but am cofident enough to say that it produced more net good for humans. That is to say, that even if I didn’t give one care for for animal welfare, that due to the utilitarian calculus, I’d still have to conclude that veganism does more net good.

            Bakewell,
            Given a conventional agricultural system (not organic) would you agree that such a system would (by nature of using food to directly feed people, rather than disproportionately using it as a resource for feeding animals, used to feed people) be more effective than factory farming?.

          • BenDoverUranus

            OMG a vegan who isn’t offended by my dissenting point of view and is actually addressing my points in a Civil manner!? what sorcery is this!?

            And to answer your question, i would say that we need to judiciously use our arable land in general. and we should just cut down on Beef&Lamb and stick with chicken&fish.. which is less taxing on the environment.

            Beef production takes way too much land&water than any other type of meat so i’d say its a gross misuse of resources.

          • Michelle König

            Yes, if we would just concentrate on something as environmentally friendly as fish, climate change could be efficiently stopped….Except for the overfishing that is done for the industrialized-countrie`s already absurdly high fish consumption which is ruining the oceans (species extinction, marine pollution). And just in case you actually really care about the starving people in developing countries: Commercial fishing is depriving lots and lots of poor countries in Africa and Asia of an important food resource. I sincerely hope that was civil enough for your sharp scientific mind-.-

          • Rachel Rose Feldman

            Jonathan, being an organic chem major myself, I am honestly surprised by your statement regarding the validity of organic agriculture. Having personally studied, applied and witnessed the results of several pesticides, herbicides and fungicides, is enough to know how important organic farming is over conventional. Not only are these chemicals proven neurotoxins, en

          • Michelle König
          • BenDoverUranus

            Eat a fucking dick.. you vegan shitstain!

          • Michelle König

            Thanks for that smart and sensible answer, but I think our eating habits greatly differ-.-

          • emonight

            “All you have to do is go and hunt animals or buy some meat like your much more intelligent ancestors used to do its that simple:
            I’m an archaeologist. Not once in my years of experience or research have I found any evidence of a shopping trolley, grocery list, or shopping bags. Clearly our intelligent meat buying ancestors were not clever enough to organise themselves before they went shopping in their neolithic Tesco. Silly ancestors.

          • Piperlee

            So you’re so angry and defensive because you think people are looking down on you! You’re very wrong – it’s about our love for animals – but that’s an eye-opening understanding.

          • Breda Bree

            youre an idiot, monster

          • BenDoverUranus

            No i have something called an OPINION.. deal with it, Ecoterrorist.

          • Anonymous11

            Im not trying to hate but..I need to ask some questions about you..: Do you support animal abuse?
            You think wrecked environment is good for us? We can’t live if its full of Garbage shit and bald jungles.Me and you will die since the earth is dirty. sooo..?
            You don’t want balanced Ecosystem?

            Coming from a meat-eater Who also eats plant. Omnivore. I respect animals and the environment we live.

            Also, i know this is old but yeah.Eat meat and plant with balance,its healthier than supporting animal abuse and forcing people to follow your belief, and people in the comment section will shut up and respect you ;)

            This is one of the reasons why those vegans hated us. ofcourse they care about animals and shit. They think we’re evil but some of us are not. I personally think some animals should be treated like we humans treated our family. I donated my money to those typhoon victim in Philippines once. i also did the same for those animal shelters.
            Please don’t attack me, vegans. I respect you all but please.. this is just the type of food i eat.

          • BenDoverUranus

            WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!? I have been talking about reducing the environmental impact of growing crops&livestock! Its the childish vegans that are so god damn hung up about killing a animals for food.

            I’ve said this once and i’ll say it again! Morality is SUBJECTIVE! I may not value things that you do and you may not value things that i do and that’s just fine but don’t act like only your way is the right one.. cus that’s what Vegans do.

            “forcing people to follow your belief”
            THAT’S REAL FUNNY! REAL FUNNY! Everyone here dogpiles me why i’m wrong and why they’re all right and then you tell me that i’m the one “Forcing my belief” on them!? even thought i’m the one lone guy here who’s not even allowed to have dissenting views.

          • Chad

            Yet it is still completely culturally acceptable to eat these animals in many civilizations around the world. I think that’s the point of the article. People can convince themselves of whatever they want/need in order to eat whatever they want/need.

            I have dogs, cats, and chickens and love all of them, although the jury is out on how much any one of them may love me back ;) I would never consider eating anyone of these individuals or a member of their species because I’ve considered them a member of their family, however, that is not at all the same for other people in different places with different values.

            I feel that Steve Bakewell’s argument that some animals are less edible than others because they bond better or have a more valuable emotional purpose for humans is not only ridiculous and selfish but blatantly ignorant to the fact that animals other than humans may have feelings, pain, or intellect. I totally agree with content of the original article and think it is an excellent explanation of the experience of myself and other vegans and vegetarians. Still, I understand that individuals will continue to eat animals and just wish that they could do so in a humane (and possible less patronizing?) way.

          • BenDoverUranus

            It may sound selfish but its the way the mother nature works.. pain&death is an inherent part of life and some animals just get the short end of stick.

            I’m not ignorant i’m just indifferent.. i just flat out DO NOT CARE.

          • Joshua

            It’s ok to be scared of change Steven. Everyone is at the beginning and when you awaken and open your heart, you will be welcomed.

          • Shannon Marie

            Cows and pigs both empathize with humans. A pig given love will have the capacity of a human 3 year old! Cows will snuggle and play ball with you. They both (just like dogs) love to get their bellies rubbed. As a first hand whiteness I can assure you that these animals ARE self aware.

          • Piperlee

            And of course, Steve, how do you know everything about all animals and their relative self-awareness, when science is learning something new about animals’ self-awareness nearly every day? Try reading Johnathan Bascombe’s books about animal sentience.

          • Dwayne Robbie

            Pigs are smarter than dogs, believe it or not.

          • http://www.teachingjoomla.com Norm Douglas

            You’re an expert in this field I can see. Surely then you’ve spent time around cows in your research and pigs. When you lived with a pig or cow for a year did you not discover they can display all the same traits as domesticated animals?

          • Vito

            By that definition (no brain or nervous system) bivalves like oysters, clams, and muscles would also be plants (and on the vegan table). Oysters are even “seeded” and “grown” by farms. so grab your oyster knife and slurp down that delicious briny meat!

          • Dwayne Robbie

            Well, other than bivalves are the ocean cleaners, so the toxins that humans have dumped into the oceans build up in their tissue, turning them into poison.

          • http://www.teachingjoomla.com Norm Douglas

            Never liked them when I wasn’t vegan… don’t need to eat them now

          • Marcia Mueller

            Konrad Lorenz once said that anyone who couldn’t tell the difference between a head of lettuce and a dog should commit suicide for the good of humanity. Guess he got tired of the old comparison between pulling up a carrot and cutting a cow’s throat.

          • TBW

            People dont hate vegans, they hate weird people with weird ideas trying to get into their business and change them into weird vegans… Please, vegans are not victims they just need a hamburger occasionally…

          • Runner

            we vegans hate the murders for meat; we wish you would get that and eat meat of animals who died a natural death.

          • TBW

            Define “natural death”…
            You mean like road kill and old, diseased animals?
            So please tell me, what is your opinion on abortion of unborn humans?

          • Piperlee

            Vegans don’t use animals in any way, including those who die a natural death. That means no leather, feathers, skins, furs, shells, eggs, bones, horns, fluids such as milk, muscles, fat, sinew, stomach linings or any other part of an animal. Abortion is not relevant to this discussion, nor is cannibalism.

          • Dona Starbird

            You do know that animals are killed during the harvesting of fruits and veggies meant for consumption by those living the vegan lifestyle? I work in agriculture and have seen first hand that animals get killed by the equipment and also lose their homes because we have to clear 4 times as much area to grow produce for vegans. You want to be vegan fine and dandy but don’t try pushing it on me. I tried it and it was the worst year and a half of my life. I had to take so many supplements and I felt so weak. I worked with a nutritionist. Even she warned me that a vegan lifestyle is not really good because humans are Omnivores

          • Elizabeth (Plant Based Bride)

            It actually takes less land to feed a vegan than an omnivore. About 18x less, to be exact. Do you forget that cows eat, too, and eat far more than humans each and every day? For every 10 lbs of grain fed to a cow, only 1 lb of beef is produced.

            The number of animals killed in agriculture is far less than the 6 million animals killed each hour for food.

            Humans are also not omnivores, as our physiology indicates. I can’t tell you what your experience was, but I have been vegan for 4 years and have perfect blood work and don’t take supplements other than an occasional B12 tablet since our soil is so degraded of this important nutrient.

          • Pisces

            Humans are omnivores! The classifications of carnivore, omnivore, and herbivore are based on what a species as whole normally eats not what it is capable of eating. Humans have been eating meat and vegetation as part of their main diets since prehistory. That makes us omnivores. If we were herbivores, veganism wouldn’t be a debate. In addition, our digestive systems are adapted for an omnivore diet. Our retention time (the time it takes for food to go past the digestive system) is relatively in the middle of carnivores and herbivores. Carnivores have very fast times and herbivores very slow times. Our teeth are suitable for omnivore diets. We can tear of pieces of meat, but we can also grind plant matter. Our digestive systems lack cecums or a multi compartment stomach for gut fermentation that is seen in herbivores because those systems are designed to get protein from plants that the animal can’t get without the side of bacteria. We eat meat to supplement our lack of gut fermentation. In addition our digestive system isn’t very long (herbivore) nor is it very short (carnivore) which is a characteristic of omnivore digestive systems. If you are going to be a vegan, fine more power to you, but get your facts straight about the human physiology. Other wise you look like an idiot.

          • Piperlee

            Some people insist that humans have always eaten animals, as if this is justification for continuing the practice.

            According to this logic, we should not try to prevent people from murdering other people either, since this has also been done since the earliest of times.

          • Pisces

            Killing for food and murder are not even morally the same. Killing for food is necessary for survival. Murder is not.

          • Piperlee

            Killing for food is NOT necessary for us. It never was. Tigers and flesh-eating bacteria must kill their food, but not humans.

            Most vegans were raised eating meat but have made the moral decision to stop participating in the animal abuse inherent in killing someone, despite their suffering, just because we like chicken wings, or leather couches, or feathered hats, or whatever it is a selfish little heart desires.

            I would not kill someone no matter how hungry I was or how much I wanted their skin for my lampshades. That means animals of any species, including human. A few hundred years ago, people all over the world ate people. Fortunately, that has largely stopped because we’ve come to realize we have no right to cage or kill others. It’s time to extend that courtesy to others who share this Earth.

            The Buddha said, “All beings tremble before violence. All fear death. All love life. See yourself in others. Then whom can you hurt? What harm can you do?”

          • Pisces

            If killing animals for food was not necessary for humans, then we would have been herbivores since we first evolved. The fact of the matter is that we are omnivores. We need meat. This is supported by anatomy, evolution, and diet.

            For anatomy, our incisors and canines are adapt for tearing meat and no the fact that they are not pointed does not mean we can’t eat meat. Our molars and premolars are adapted for crushing food like plant matter. Our digestive system is simple unlike herbivores which have very complex digestive systems. Because of this, we have limited ability to digest hard plant matter. Herbivores use gut fermentation to overcome this because they have a cecum or a rumitary digestive system. We don’t. The length of our GI tract is not relatively long like a herbivore’s nor relatively short than a carnivore’s. It the relative length of an omnivore’s. Our digestion time is also an intermediate between the digestion times of herbivores and carnivores which is a characteristic of omnivores. In conclusion, our digestive system is that of an omnivore’s.

            Human evolution has supported our need for meat. As I said before, our ancestors have been eating meat since they first appeared on this planet. This wasn’t because they chose to. On top of that eating meat is one of the many contributing factors that helped us to evolve bigger brains. Consuming meat and vegetation as opposed to all vegetation has led to more energy being gained than energy lost in digestion and finding it. Meat packed with more calories and fat than plants and takes less
            time to digest. The some of the increased energy gain went to the brain which uses 20% of calories. Our brains evolved to be bigger and smarter and our GI tract shrank. As a result, humans learned to make tools and use fire to cook. Using tools to cut meat meant less energy spent on chewing food and cooking food has made it extremely easier for the body to aborb nutrients. It was the latter that led to the development of the human brain.

            Our diet is what makes us omnivores. We have been eating meat and plants since the dawn of time which makes us omnivores. How we get our food or what we should be eating is irrevelant. (Fun fact: prehistoric humans hunted by persistent tracking and are the only species capable of using that method.) No macro civilization has ever been able to survive on a vegan diet. Humans also need Vitamin B12. We are incapable of producing it on our own and the only way we can get it is by eating meat or taking supplements.

            The fact of the matter is human need meat. If you want to go vegan, more power to you, but don’t disregard scientific fact to feal better about your choice.

            Also, no we never ate people as a society. A few tribes practice cannibaliam as funerary rites, but that’s about it.

          • Aaron Owens

            Actually humans are officially classified as omnivores. Omnivore by definition is any creature capable of utilizing both plants and meats for energy. That is the textbook definition of omnivore. Humans can utilize both plants and meats for energy. Teeth structure has nothing to do with it. Sure we don’t have claws and fangs like a lion. Neither does a starfish. Not everything that eats meat looks like a tiger or a lion.

          • Ryan Roberts

            Humans have large brains it would take 3 wheelbarrows of grass a day to support our brain function,I would think if we were meant to eat grass we would have two stomachs in order to absorb all the nitrogen

          • Vivi Siow

            Oh….come on. The evidence is in your biology. I would insult you,but honestly?Its common sense that humans are omnivores!How else are we able to eat meat and plants?

          • Jerome

            Most of the area which is cleared up in this world is for growing livestock feed, not for feeding vegans. As for your year and a half, I’m sorry it didn’t go well. That is pretty much an exception to the rule. It may be the case that your food choices were not balanced. Also, judging from her comment, your nutritionist was probably incompetent and didn’t help you.

          • Dona Starbird

            I worked with a nutirinutritionist and a doctor. Both said the same thing. I had also spoken with. Several othe people that have had the same experience.

          • Rosa Borisova
          • Dona Starbird

            Why is my stating what I know for fact as absurd?

          • Will Freeman

            Even though I’m a a vegetarian myself, I have to say Rosa’s graph doesn’t demonstrate much useful, and there’s no need for Rosa to be so dismissive to you! Where are those numbers from? Who are the body behind those numbers? Reference the academic paper or research body. We can all find a meme-ish image that fits something we’ve decided in advance! That’s not the same as ‘research’. I’m not saying Rosa’s graph is wrong… but alone and without context is says very little. I’m vegetarian as I’m an animal lover, and I do struggle with the notion that animals die in the preparation of land for growing plants for human food. But I look at it like this… for me, not eating meat at least reduces the number of animals that die for me to survive, even if it doesn’t reduce it to zero. That works for me. But I’d never push my vegetarianism on anybody else. Eating meat’s natural, so go for it!

          • Vivi Siow

            I’m just Glad that at least one vegan here isn’t just assaulting others with their condescending tone,and thanks for not being so dismissive to Dona starbird like rosa did. :)

          • Rosa Borisova

            You claim to be omnivore but are definitely far from it. . Unfortunately, you too, like most people have lost your natural herbivore, non – violent, humane,ethical, herbivore nature and instincts. No way, no how we are natural born killers, hunters, carnivore or omnivore. There are good, logical reasons confirming actually the opposite. Unless are a psycho, no normal person will ever be ready, willing, able, enjoys bare handedly killing animals to eat their bloody, raw (living or deceased) flesh, guts, fat, brains, eye balls, testicles, right then and there as is. If this isn’t absurd, don’t know what else is. It’s also ludicrous, unnatural, revolting, abnormal, disgusting, repulsive and self – destructive. Also almost impossible and extremely difficult thing to do for most people. You can’t deny these are simple facts, no matter how hard you try. Check my previous comment if you want to know and do better than this. Thanks

          • Piperlee

            “When we kill animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings, who are natural herbivores.”
            ~ Dr. William C. Roberts, Editor-in-Chief,
            The American Journal of Cardiology

            “Our study suggests that the closer one approaches a total plant food diet, the greater the health benefit…. It turns out that animal protein, when consumed, exhibits a variety of undesirable health effects. Whether it is the immune system, various enzyme systems, the uptake of carcinogens into the cells, or hormonal activities, animal protein generally only causes mischief.”
            – Dr. T. Colin Campbell, Author, The China Study

            “It is well known that animal foods are heavily contaminated with viruses and bacteria such as salmonella, listeria, E. coli, campylobacter, and streptococcus, which can be harmful if not fatal to people, especially given our already overworked immune systems. The urea in animal flesh also contains toxins. It has furthermore recently been shown that cooked animal flesh contains heterocyclic amines, which are carcinogenic chemicals that form during the cooking process. Thus, by not cooking flesh enough, we may expose ourselves to salmonella, E. coli, and other pathogens, and by cooking it, we end up eating cancer-causing chemicals formed by heating the animal fat.”
            – Dr. Will Tuttle, Author, The World Peace Diet

          • Will Freeman

            Hey Rosa. I’m a vegetarian as I’m an animal lover. I may not have moved to veganism (yet!) but I really see all life as equal. Indeed, only this morning I was rescuing tiny insects from my empty bath before running the water – I couldn’t knowingly drown the guys! But that brings me to a point about your graph. It reports on biomass but does not say whether that is quantity-based biomass, or mass-based (the latter being more common). That’s a huge difference in terms of the number of lives! For me, I value all lives equally (or try too!). And by some of you posts above, am I right you feel the same? For that reason I equally try not to kill insects. In number – if not in mass – insects account for far more than all the animals (livestock included) on Earth (Michael Chinary, Field Guide to the Insects of Britain and Northern Europe). OK – insects is an fringe case example, but livestock certainly tends to have more mass per single life than most wild animals. In terms of mass, one cow might equal 30 rabbits (at a guess! Call it a hypothetical example!). If that graph above is referring to the usual mass-based biomass, in the context you’re using it here, it would suggest the life of one cow has the same value as at the life of 30 rabbits. And that seems contrary to many of your posts here! I’m an animal lover too… but if you’re going to pull out charts and stats, make sure they’re water tight! Or mark what type of biomass it refers to!

          • Rosa Borisova

            Plant – Based/ Vegan lifestyle is THE BEST, FASTEST, MOST EFFICIENT solution to EVERYTHING. Not only for the animals you say you love so much, for your own health and the Planet. 15 Years ago I was just like you, and thanks to this exact LOVE for ALL animals (not just some), the Planet, my health I chose to eliminate all animal products from my diet and life- style. It wasn’t easy, but was the best decision I ever made. My only regret was, not doing it earlier. The good news is that you can too. If you want to do better you must do better than this. You sound like nice, non – violent human being, which is great. You don’t have to be jennie, professor, millionaire or doctor to put 2+2 together. EVERYTHING about Plant – Based / VEGAN life- style is simple, logical, normal, ethical, natural and as perfect as it can be. The charts are very simple and not hard to understand. However I’m providing few important links to check out. But first, few important facts:
            – When we eat, wear and use animal products ( meat, fish, eggs, dairy, honey, silk, animals’ skins/leather, fur) we create, encourage, allow and promote deforestation, hunger, wild life extinction, diseases, Global Warming, pollution and violence.
            – Animal agriculture is the worst polluter on Planet Earth and could never be sustainable.
            – 80 % Of the agricultural lands in the U.S. only is used to rase and feed farmed animals. America alone can feed 1,100 billion people.
            – To make 1 kg. beef are necessary: 15 455 lt. water: 27 kg. of CO2; 36 kg. hay; 6.5 kg. grains.
            – We massacre over 65 billion land(farmed) animals and 95+ marine animals each year for profits, clothes, trinkets and food we don’t need in order to live well, be healthy, wealthy, happy and proud. We are only 7 billion !!!!!
            – If in your plate there is a victim it is no longer a personal choice. Even if you don’t eat someone else’s flesh, yet you rob them from their milk, eggs, skins, fur, feathers, honey and freedom you create, support, encourage and allow violence, deforestation, hunger, wild life extinction, pollution, global warming and diseases.
            – The only milk we need is the milk from our own mothers. Milk is for babies only and the cow isn’t our mother either.
            – Veal calves can live up to 20 years but in the farming industry only 1 – to 24 weeks.
            – To produce one lt. milk are necessary 1000 lt. water. In nature cows produce 7 lt. milk a day necessary for the survival of their calves. Farmed cows – 27 + lt. per day.
            – There’s no such thing as “humane” slavery, discrimination, racism, violence and murder. Killing someone who want, desires to live, is healthy and has the right to live just as much as you is wrong, unethical, abnormal, cruel, unhealthy and inhumane.
            – Animal protein/cholesterol is crippling the human- animals’ digestive system, kidneys, liver and health.
            – Animal agriculture is responsible for 5050 million tons of manure each year – nearly 28 times the amount from the entire (U.S.) human population.
            – 2000 trees are chopped down in the Amazon rainforest every 60 seconds to make room for agriculture. 80 percent of that (1600 trees) are levelled just to produce meat, which only causes further damage to the environment.
            – 500 million tons of manure nearly 28 times more than the entire (US) humane population gross each year. Polluting over 35.000 miles of (US) rivers, lakes threatening endangered fish, amphibians and birds. Over 117 endangered species that live on US lands are threatened by animal slavery only. Add self – proclaimed “hunters”, poachers and gold diggers. 50% Of water goes towards raising animals for food. 74.5% Of global green house gases come from farm animals – more than trains, cars and airplanes combined.
            – For ONE veggie burger are needed: 42 gallons of water and ONE beef burger – 621 gallons of water.
            – For one kg. beef is needed 32+ sq. meters of land,
            – One kg. of pork 20+ sq. m. land,
            – One kg. of chicken 18 sq. m.,
            – One kg. of eggs 18 sq. m.of land,
            – One kg. fruits about 2 meters,
            – One kg. potatoes 1 sq. m. and 1/2, and
            – One kg. veggies less than a meter.
            We the “human” animals cheat not only other sentient beings and Mother Nature but ourselves too, when we exploit, use, wear and eat other species…. And not because our lives are in immediate danger, because of starvation, but only to fulfil foolish, absurd, crippled, barbaric ideas, needs and traditions.Go to YouTube, Netflix, Google for more:
            – FOOD CHOICES
            – EVERYTHING WRONG WITH ENVIRONMENTALISM IN 11 MIN.
            – $30K POOP NUTRITION CHALLENGE! SPONSORED BY BEN & JERRY’S
            – EUROPE’S DARK SECRET : EYE OPENING SPEECH
            – BEST SPEECH EVER
            – GLOBAL WARMING:MEAT THE TRUTH
            – 2 1/2 MILLION YEARS THE BULK LIVED ON STARCH BASED DIETS
            – ONE GREEN PLANET
            – BEYOND CARNISM AND TOWARDS RATIONAL
            – NONVIOLECEUNITED.ORG
            – THE FOOD WE WERE BORN TO EAT
            – FREE RANGE MYTH
            – PALMOILINVESTIGATIONS.ORG
            – HUMANEFACTS.ORG
            – AWELLFEDWORLD.ORG
            – FARM TO FRIDGE
            – FREEFROMHARM.ORG
            – RAN.ORG/RESPONSIBLE_FOOD_SYSTEMS
            – FACEBOOK.COM/SCHOOLOFVEGAN
            – VEGANSTREET.COM
            – BITESIZEVEGAN.COM/NUMBERS
            – MEAT-ABOLITION.ORG
            – LILA COPELAND
            – RAWFORBEAUTY.COM
            – PHARMACY.PROTEINAHOLIC – DR. GARTH DAVIS
            – DR. COLIN CAMPBELL – CHINA STUDY
            – EVOLVE.COM
            – EARTHSAFE.ORG
            – THE EXTREMISM OF VEGANISM/ EXPOSING THE GREATEST LIE (SPEECH)
            – HOW TO TRANSITION TO A VEGAN DIET – STEP BY STEP GUIDE
            – UNITED POULTRY CONCERNS : UPC-ONLINE.ORG
            – IS EATING ANIMALS A PERSONAL CHOICE?
            http://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-role-of-bovine-leukemia-virus-in-breast-cancer/
            http://nutritionfacts.org/video/how-much-cancer-does-lunch-meat-cause/
            http://nutritionfacts.org/video/breast-cancer-survival-butterfat-and-chicken/
            http://nutritionfacts.org/video/eggs-choline-and-cancer/
            http://www.today.com/health/eating-you-alive-new-film-claims-plant-based-foods-could-t107610
            https://www.facebook.com/plantbasednews/videos/1789720841281012
            A study published in the Journal of Atherosclerosis Research found that regular egg consumption could put your health at grave risk.
            The average American consumes about 247 eggs every year. This is over 40 percent more than the world per-capita average. Because egg yolks are loaded with cholesterol, a known risk factor for coronary artery disease and heart attacks, they are as dangerous as cigarettes according to scientists. THANKS

          • Will Freeman

            As a vegetarian I do struggle with the idea of animals being killed for clearing space for crops (and farming wood etc.). But to me that’s no reason for me to stop being vegetarian. At least (for me – I’d never push it on anybody else) I’m reducing the amount of animals that die for me to stay alive, if not reducing that figure to zero.

          • Vivi Siow

            So…..do you hate predators for killing their prey to survive?

          • Rosa Borisova

            You clearly have no idea what you are saying at all. So sad. Actually is “weird”to enslave, use, abuse, torture, rape and kill someone to eat, wear and use their body parts to prematurely destroy their own health and environment. Unless you know what vegans know you will never be able to understand why are they so passionate and why will never go back to the same old, same old barbaric, outdated, crippled way of living. Look at this banner to hopefully see what and who is really “weird” https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b188721007556cfc47bccc74ef915b88aa80148f9333510e4470c442dfc319b0.jpg

          • Ryan Roberts

            i wonder how many vegans have been eaten alive by wild animals

          • Rosa Borisova
          • Rosa Borisova

            LOL… NONE… but what’s your point?

          • Aaron Owens

            please stop telling people to go vegan. if you want to be vegan fine. telling others to go vegan is exactly why people dont like vegans. you realize you live in a world where life feeds on life and the act of one creature eating another is perfectly natural. how to you apply a moral evil to something natural?

          • Piperlee

            Aaron, you want people to be quiet when animals are abused? Is that what YOU do when you see someone beat a dog, for example? If someone wants to beat a dog, fine with you maybe, but not most of us. Telling others not to beat a dog is exactly why others (specifically the abusers) don’t like people who speak up against like dog-beaters. Is that your theory? And as to your other point, murder is perfectly natural as well. It’s been going on since Cain and Abel, and because it’s so natural you think it should continue into the future?

          • Vivi Siow

            I want to say that eating meat does not mean that we enjoy abuse of animals. If you confused yourself with those who eat meat with animal abusers,I will give up on talking more sense into you,because honestly?You WILL just shrug off my attempts at rationale.

          • Piperlee

            It is you who resists rationale, Vivi. Of course, you won’t listen to me. How about him:

            “However scrupulously the slaughterhouse is concealed in the graceful distance of miles, there is complicity,”
            ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

            Or him:

            “We must fight against the spirit of unconscious cruelty with which we treat the animals. Animals suffer as much as we do. . . . It is our duty to make the whole world recognize it.”
            —Albert Schweitzer

            Or him:

            “Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages”
            ~ Thomas Edison

            Or him:

            “Man suppresses in himself, unnecessarily, the highest spiritual capacity—that of sympathy and pity towards living creatures like himself—and by violating his own feelings becomes cruel.”
            ~ Leo Tolstoy

            Or him:

            “The time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they now look upon the murder of men.”
            ~ Leonardo Da Vinci

            or Him:

            “First, live a compassionate life. Then you will know.”
            ~ Buddha

            Or Him:

            “The multitude of your sacrifices―what are they to me?” says the Lord. “I have more than enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats…. Your hands are full of blood; wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight.”
            ~ Isaiah 1:11, 15-16

            I could go on.

          • Vivi Siow

            I am tired of replying to you. I will just say this once more-if you truly care about saving animals who died via torture,spread awareness and people will naturally turn away from such factories. And again,I do not feel guilt for eating meat. I feel guilt for how Long the animal had to suffer before being released to death. I will never feel guilt about eating meat,because we are omnivores.
            Which is to say,we don’t have a choice to not eat meat. Our bodies are built to consume meat and plants. And perhaps some of you can stand the complete plant based diet,and thus have the choice,most of us don’t. Telling someone to continue being vegan while they get weaker and weaker each day…
            Who are the cruel ones?You,or the animal torturer?
            The answer is both.
            Of course,if they can stand said diet,I don’t mind. It’s not like I have anything against vegans and meat eaters other than both yelling profanities,threats of murder and insults to each other.

          • Tracey Frebertshauser

            The animals are being tortured, wake up!!!!!

          • Vivi Siow

            Plants are being killed. WAKE UP!
            No,but seriously,meat eaters are not abusers of animals. But I can tell you that and my rationale of it and you’d still shrug it off,so why bother?

          • Tracey Frebertshauser

            Fruitarianism is the only non violent way of eating, which being vegan we eat more fruit then anyone. The tree bears fruit and lives on and that is the true circle of life.

          • Vivi Siow

            That might actually be a good idea,do you think it’s possible to get all nutrition just by eating fruits,though?
            But you guys still eat the plants. Poor them.

          • Tracey Frebertshauser

            I primarily eat food that has a seed such as cucumber, peppers, eggplant, tomato, zichinni, pumpkin, mango, banana, grapes, hemp seed, nuts, pumpkin seeds etc. I 100% believe we get all nutrition that way. Absolutely. What do you think the animals eat?

          • Vivi Siow

            Yet still some people get sick from vegan diet. What do you think is the cause of that,if it’s possible to obtain all nutrition just by the food you listed? ?.?
            Where does the seed go,after you eat the fruit? Do you plant it or is it possible to give it back to the Farmers?
            -edited for spelling mistakes(sorry I’m on my mobile TaT)

          • Tracey Frebertshauser

            People get sick from eating animals. People have been conditioned by the biggest business that exist, the animal industry. People get high blood pressure, high cholesterol, and diabetes from eating animal products. Veganism heals pepole of this. The seeds get replanted of coures, hence the circle of life.

          • Vivi Siow

            Replanted where? ?.?
            People get sick from an entirely plant based diet,too. Most people are healthy if they eat some portion of meat,but not overeat said meat. :) Veganism…might help and work for some people,but I don’t think everyone could survive on it,since there are many comments about them switching back to meat due to nutrition issues. :/

          • Tracey Frebertshauser

            Excuse me what the hell kind of nutrition issues??? Replanted in the ground! The only issues they have is bad conditioning by a corrupt industry. Let it go.

          • Tracey Frebertshauser

            If they had any issue it was just in theit head because it’s been literally shoved down their throats since birth. Let’s move out of the dark ages for god sake and be civilized ethical people these arguments areally played out. The facts are out there. Go watch “what the health”. Plus get over yourselves you are not so important that other sentinent beings need to be tortured so that in your mind you have the most impeccable health, it is bs in the first place so please stop and you will be rewarded with healthy body, healthy mind, healthy planet, and good ethics will make you feel like the human that you were put here to be.

          • Tracey Frebertshauser

            I throw my seeds out on the wild but yes giving to farmers is a good idea. I have only heard of people thriving after going vegan. People get sick for all kinds of reasons. To blame it on being vegan is a mistake. I do not believe in a lot of mainstream dietary advice because it is written by the same people who run animal agricultural. I have been vegan for 10 years and I never get sick. Back when I ate animals I got sick regurally and was anemic. Ido not eat processed vegan food. I eat organic produce. And I rarely eat starch. I eat hemp seed, avocado, all fruit and I feel and look my best. I am actually reversing my aging from avoiding all Western influence. I also would never consider taking any of their pills they try to pass off as medicine.

          • Vivi Siow

            …you throw them into the wild!? Well,I hope they survive… well,you only heard of people thriving after going vegan,what I heard was the opposite-they get weaker and weaker if they do so,and only some can actually survive on it. I wouldnt say that blaming it on vegan diet is a mistake,because it’s literally what people are saying after they tried the diet. I know it’s different for you,since you said it works for you-but do think that we’re talking about everyone and not only a few… Maybe you had something with animals. Most of us are fine with some meat,and don’t get sick regularly like you do. I Guess being vegan was good for you,keep it up!:D
            But you do know that if you’re sick,you should take the pills prescribed,right…?

          • Tracey Frebertshauser

            I am not a follower. I am well educated and have done extensive research and my own practice. And that is what everyone should be doing. It is time for a change. People are not sick from eating plant based so stop spreading lies about a good positive change for the world. It is a cleaner way to live and it is the ethical thing to do. If one human can do it, we all can.

          • Vivi Siow

            I don’t know what you mean by ‘I’m not a follower’,would you explain a bit more?Thanks! :D
            Everyone who had done extensive research or were well educated arrived at either your conclusion or my conclusion-however most of it is that not everyone could survive eating plant based diet. In fact,there’s even a comment in this blog that says so. I’m not spreading lies-it is an undeniable fact that some people can be healthy eating a 100% plant based diet,and some could not. Perhaps,in your view,anyone that doesn’t do the same as you is unethical,as many vegans insult others… but the point is,regardless of if one eats meat or not,they are not all ‘animal torturers’. Most of us eat meat out of necessity,and if you would spread awareness of animals being tortured before their deaths,no one would contribute money for the meat the factory would provide. If one person can try to stop the insults both groups both threw based on their views,everyone could. :)

          • Tracey Frebertshauser

            It’s all in your heads that you can not survive without meat. I am not conditioned like you all, I broke free, just like I am trying to help the animals break free of slavery and torture. I also boycott tv and movies for over 5 years because that is a big part of conditioning peoples minds. Our bodies are made up primarily of water. Stay hydrated and you are all good. We have fruigovore teeth. Case closed.

          • Vivi Siow

            If it was really all in our heads as you say,there would be no comments about it weakening people,or anything else like videos and etc. And again,we’re not conditioned by whatever you guys said,and meat eating was all started by our ancestors anyways. (Otherwise where would the idea of etc even appear…) What you choose to boycott isn’t my problem,but I’d like to warn you that you might be missing out on important things,perhaps. Yes,our bodies are primarily made out of water,what does this point have to do with anything? No,”stay hydrated and you’re all good”-do you get my point about people being different…? This is a nurtrition problem,not a water problem. Fruigovore teeth… not this excuse again. We’re omnivores. If you’re going to say our teeth isn’t designed to eat meat,I’m going to tell you our body can still use meat and we can still hack at the meat with our teeth. Case closed. ;)

          • Tracey Frebertshauser

            Our teeth are indeed the teeth of fruigovores. Look it up. The funny thing is you will never win this argument because I already was like you and have evolved way past you. You would never be able to know you that you are conditioned until you arent. You will be able to see for yourself when life throws you some experience. Who said it was a problem me boycotting tv??? That was one of the best dam decisions I ever made.

          • Vivi Siow

            My point with the teeth is that you all use it to say we’re fruigovores. That is not true,we have a digestive tract that are not carnivore sized Nor herbivore sized-it’s medium sized. The fact that our body can use meat for energy speaks for itself. The funny thing is we’ll never win against each other because it’s a difference of opinion. You’ll never be able to grasp how this conflict could devolve,or will devolve. You’ll see for yourself when someone you know tried to be a vegan and DIES for it. You’ll also see it if this devolves into physical violence. Sure,I’m young,I don’t know anything. But I do know that if people start threatening each other-then they should stop. I was also stating the fact that there was no need to mention what you boycott to me,because I don’t need the information. I only wanted to tell you that you might miss some news,mainly because people tell the kids to watch the news on TV-it helps with awareness and English… sorry,I went off topic. I was trying to explain myself,but I Guess that isn’t needed. You’re an adult,so I Guess you should decide for yourself.

          • Tracey Frebertshauser

            People are dying all around me from eating meat. Dropping dead of heart attacks from high cholesterol all the time. I have no idea your age and was never referencing your age. Some people could be 90 and not have much experience because they spent their life doing meaningless work and then coming home and watching TV.

          • Vivi Siow

            People are dying from overeating meat. People are at possible risk of dying via eating entire plant based diets due to lack of nutrition. I think we should eat a bit of meat and a bunch of vegetables to stay healthy. If you have no idea on my age,and never reference my age,please do not push the life experience thing onto me. I do not believe someone can be 90 and not be the least bit wise…the elderly have a point,but the young may not see it. The young generation of this age have mostly went to the internet instead of television,which is also one more reason to try to persuade people from the words that threaten to more agreeable words. Insults,implications of such, condescending or mocking tones… Would it do us harm to spare a thought for those who read our conversations,and how we word our discussions? Should we tell them what we think is right,and push it onto them even as they get weaker from what you tell them to do?
            I think that telling people to try out vegan is fine. What I don’t believe is fine is telling them to continue doing so when it’s clear they got weaker,or labelling meat eaters as all ‘animal torturers’ when they’re not. (It’s slander,too.) what I also don’t believe is fine is the act of using slander to ‘guilt trip’ people into being vegan,even when there should be no guilt in the first place. Because not all factories does animal torture,and the ones that do and get found out would receive the disgust of people. The meat is a necessity for some people,too,and not ‘meat addiction’.
            I have never said we couldn’t survive without meat,but I don’t believe that it’s all in our heads,either. What I’m saying is that I don’t believe everyone can survive on a 100% plant based diet,because if everyone could,there wouldn’t be vegans or vegetarians turning back to meat,or people feeling weaker for changing their diet. There’s proof that some of you could,and proof that some couldn’t. That’s how I came to this conclusion. I don’t know if you’ll ever read this,or even reply to the Long texts. But thank you if you do,and I hope you understand. :)

          • Vivi Siow

            That said,I do not appreciate condescension based on my age. Thanks for your understanding.

          • Rosa Borisova

            For decades flesh eaters have imposed, forced, brainwashed and lied to us that eating corpses is a good thing. “So “telling others to go”animal products eaters is 100 times worst. It’s a crime. We don’t need to kill anyone in order to eat well, be healthy, well, wealthy, proud and happy. There’s nothing “natural”, normal or humane about enslaving, robing, raping, using, abusing and killing others for 5 min. pallet pleasure and profits. While destroying our environment, creating diseases, wild life extinction, hunger, global warming and violence!!!!!
            Besides, no one really cares what you put in your own body unless your foolish choices create and encourage pollution, hunger, wild life extinction, global warming, deforestation, diseases and violence.

          • Rosa Borisova

            If you think that killing others to eat their decaying body parts is “natural” and “normal” you are out of your mind. There’s nothing “normal” about robbing other species from everything precious to them including their homes, freedom, children’s milk, eggs, skins, bones, and furs. It’s PURE EVIL. Whether you “like” vegans or not you can’t change the facts that Animal Agriculture is the WORST polluter on Planet Earth. And the fact that when you eat, wear and use animal products you create, encourage, allow and promote diseases, deforestation, hunger, wild life extinction, global warming, pollution and violence!!!!! https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/36315d37ac9904c1ecde92c7d739ef82af2d090c787a616cd9adaa1b14a0f40d.jpg

          • Rosa Borisova
          • Rosa Borisova
          • Brian Lesko

            OK, Rosa, we get your point. As a vegan myself, I am appalled by your need to hijack this thread and make it all about you.

          • Rosa Borisova

            You don’t need to kill and eat anyone (human or not in order to eat well, be healthy, wealthy and happy. Since you don’t grow your own fur, powerful jaws, claws, fangs, night vision, can’t sniff like a dog, are unable nor willing to chase after any pray to feed yourself from their still living, raw, bloody flesh, guts, testicles, fat and bones you are not carnivore/omnivore. Then, you can’t tell people that it’s “normal” way of life and “natural”.

          • Ryan Roberts

            The wAy you present your ideas encourages argument,if you truly do care about the hobby of veganism then I would suggest keep your ideas to your self cuz ur not helping,ur just annoying.it’s making me wanna eat Mexicans or whatever your nationality is

          • Rosa Borisova

            One have to be really dumb not to see that I’m not a Mexican… lol… just for argument’s sake … even if I was – so what’s your point? Are you saying that people of different nationalities than yours are below your crippled, narrow-minded, arrogant, intellectual level?

          • Ryan Roberts

            Ummmmm no!..were all human so I would venture to guess that we all have the same intellectual capabilities..I just think it’s weird to not eat animals..the only problem is that In order to be a healthy carnivore one must eat the whole animal not just select pieces of muscle.it’s the consumption of organs along with the muscle that balances out the healthy meal! Bon appetite!

          • Rosa Borisova
          • Rosa Borisova
          • Rosa Borisova

            PLEASE TELL ME SIR WHICH ONE OF THE FOLLOWING BANNERS LOOKS “PERFECTLY NORMAL” TO YOU?????https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/45921cf65f8b60e0cbec6437e20c8abfeb736337aadc6a77e408d67f11125582.jpg

          • Rosa Borisova
          • Rosa Borisova
          • Dwayne Robbie

            Predators don’t have a choice. They have to hunt to survive. Almost all humans have a choice. They don’t need to hunt to survive. And lets be honest, what human is willing to chase down an animal and kill it with their hands and teeth, then rip out the soft parts (guts) with their teeth and eat it raw? That’s real hunting. That’s survival. Not going down to your local grocery store to buy rotting animal carcasses and secretions. Lame excuse.

          • Vivi Siow

            Man…you’re too far gone. I give up,why are you all so…annoyed that people are telling you to stop insulting other people?

          • Piperlee

            It is you who insults, Vivi.

          • Vivi Siow

            Ok. So tell me if I used any insults or threatened to murder someone over their own opinion. :) I will say sorry if I did use a vulgar word,but I WILL go and insult someone who threatened to kill someone. In fact,if you look at this entire comment section,you’ll find someone who threatened to wring someone’s neck. Insults I may tolerate and brush off,but murder? This is also a comment section,and thus I have the right to comment on how I ‘give up’ and telling people to stop insulting each other. Of course,you guys have the right to voice your opinions too. If you all didn’t want opinion on what you comment on,why did you comment? I can understand you vegans being annoyed at meat eaters,but both groups yelling at each other WILL not solve the problem. That is why I’m telling you guys to stop your insults. Your comment in reply to mine is exactly why ‘I give up’.

          • Piperlee

            “If you don’t want to beat and stab your pet dog, that’s fine, but don’t tell me not to beat and stab mine.”

            We all recognize that we aren’t entitled to treat others, especially those who are defenseless, however we like, and that if we are responsible for doing harm, people have every right to ask us to stop.

          • Tracey Frebertshauser

            You probably work for the animal industry so you are getting paid to continue the conditioning of the people to think it is so natural. Oh yeah artificially impregnating cow’s for milk, keeping animals in cages, breeding them for murder is just sooo natural.

          • Pisces

            Contrary to popular belief, dogs are not commonly eaten in China. Only a small part of the population does it, and the rest of the population is largely embarrassed that dog eating still exists in their country

          • Vivi Siow

            Maybe people would be more willing to go vegan if said vegans did not Disdain meat eaters to the point of yelling profanities. That said,a living being that does not feel emotions are allowed to die? So you all eat plants because they don’t have ‘emotions’? What gave you all the right to deny one living being of its life and allow the other to live? Would you all eat meat,then,if living beings that are killing show no pain,no fear, or love and we’re not sentient? Please,guys. Meat eaters and vegans?We all still took a life,solely for the purpose of our own life. Bacteria is something I wouldn’t tell touch about,because such a topic is something I never heard of But I suppose they’re living things too? Since we all have the desire to live and be happy,why don’t both the meat eaters and vegans respect each other for once and stop insulting each other,either by condescension in writing and otherwise?

          • Vnesa Nvoić

            Does bacteria have central nervous system?

          • Steve Bakewell

            There is no reasonable difference,they are all live beings!
            ~~~César Humberto Cruz García

          • Dermot

            Again with the elementary responses. Simple: bacteria are unicellular organisms that do not possess a nervous system (nervous systems are multicellular so obviously they can’t). In order to feel and be conscious of pain one must have a nervous system. Animals have a nervous system, so they are capable of suffering and feeling pain. Killing a bacteria is categorically different than killing an animal.

          • Morgan Madariaga

            You are too lost for any of us to explain this further to you lol

          • Dwayne Robbie

            Do you know what a Sentient being is? Comparing a Sentient being to a non-Sentient being is ludicrous.

          • Aaron Owens

            besides the fact that one is raised as livestock for food and one is a domesticated pet? a cat is VERY different from a chicken. case in point, a cat will eat a chicken. why? because its different. its designed differently from a chicken and serves an entirely different role in this world. is a cow the same as a shark? is a slug the same as a human being? no. please use some logic. real logic, not vegan logic.

          • drew

            Of course there’s differences, but a lot of vegan’s main concern is that both have the capacity to suffer mentally and physically.

          • Jenae Carpenter

            Hi, I am not a vegan, but I raise chickens. Adult chickens would eat a cat. They kill and eat snakes. Chickens are smart enough to learn their own

          • Rosa Borisova

            And so what? Who cares what chickens do?

          • Rosa Borisova

            What eating, wearing and using animal products by humans has a to do with what other animals do and eat to survive? “If you can’t eat it as is it’s not yours to eat” https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/2f730d12eb390275a8bff904a065073b6bbae81c8e6bb7394a616d5166ce133e.jpg

          • Aaron Owens

            Do you realize the very computer you are using to post this was made using plastics derived from animal byproducts? That the tires on your car are manufactured using animal byproducts? Even the plywood in your home. Your toothpaste. So you can use everything else derived from animals, but I can’t eat the meat from them. Tell me Rosa, since you are so logical, what exactly is the purpose of a cow in the wild? Does a cow graduate from college or send rockets into space? Or does a cow fill a role in a food chain?

          • Rosa Borisova

            LOL, Sir, just because a cow doesn’t have diploma, doesn’t read, wright, use computer and think like you doesn’t mean she has no right to live, be respected, free and do as she please! Do you abuse the children, mentally handicapped, disabled, the blind just because they didn’t graduate from college or send rockets into space? And please enlighten me, why should they? What is “your role in the food chain”? People have learned to use animal products as if it’s normal, natural, good thing to do, but is not. It will take really long time before we change old habits. It doesn’t mean we say and do nothing, it doesn’t mean we have any other choices and that we agree. Obviously, my first and only choice will be not to use ANY animal products. BTW, wasn’t aware that animal products are used in computers… which sounds absurd?! Do you have solid proof of that? However, to abolish slavery it took 300 years, let’s hope we don’t have to wait that long to stop cheating Mother Nature, non – human animals and CHILDREN. Besides, if you pay careful attention to the banners I’ve shared so far, you’ll know that ANIMAL AGRICULTURE IS THE WORST POLLUTER ON PLANET EARTH. SO, IF AND WHEN MANUFACTURERS BEGUIN TO UNDERSTAND HOW DESTRUCTIVE ANIMAL AGRICULTURE IS THEY WILL FOLLOW TOO… . THAT’S WHY I BECAME VEGAN. DOING EVERYTHING TO ELIMINATE (WHEN AND IF POSSIBLE) USING ALL ANIMAL PRODUCTS. ONE LAST THING FOR TODAY, WHAT THE FUCK YOU DO TO STOP ANIMAL AGRICULTURE FROM CREATING UNNECESSARY, ENDLESS https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/575e113ca44ef716706bf10b6215dc87e4de0b1 https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f96abdc010b4fa098b1e070b946b0344b7f0e22b15e09e625d7d5e977a181e94.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/575e113ca44ef716706bf10b6215dc87e4de0b11b52f9c8f790c4082b99da510.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d8dde8f40f3e36db83febd1567e615a11a4d7b9f770d7eee06a940d5774ce4a6.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8b7a72972e36ce5cc2c7ceb5399d41845d0a68660bb2af6cda025220fc5f1ac6.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/21448afa18a01dbe5e65b8e2f1c6d48836166b648c5e597303440d983270b34c.png https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9e1ddca75c2e266fbff959e6606c648129d22482f891bea27446cb7881b51a30.jpg 1b52f9c8f790c4082b99da510.jpg VIOLENCE, DISEASES, GLOBAL WARMING, DEFORESTATION AND HUNGER?

          • Rosa Borisova
          • Rosa Borisova
          • justjoseph

            Says WHO?

          • Rosa Borisova
          • Aaron Owens

            I find it ironic that you have a profile picture of a natural predator that exists for the sole purpose of killing and eating animals, but you think eating meat is a moral evil. I mean look around you. You don’t live in a universe that encourages veganism. Why are you mad at me for eating meat? Why aren’t you mad at the reality of the world in which you live and the fact that this world encouraged life to feed on life? By design. You don’t live in a vegan world. Sorry to break it to you.

          • Rosa Borisova
          • john vickers

            You have no logic you posted one of these claiming people fist cows arse holes for artificial insemination i think you need the birds and bees talk

          • Mark Tanner

            That literally happens… Please research artificial insemination practices if you disagree

          • john vickers

            Babies dont come from the anus

          • Mark Tanner

            Did you research it, or are you presuming knowledge without actually doing research?

          • Piperlee

            The fist in the anus is about control, John, while they impregnate the cow through the normal route.

          • john vickers

            Your fucked i know beef farmers no one other than a vet for medical purposes and they just put them in a crush to control them spend some time on a farm instead of the internet

          • Pisces

            AI isn’t commonly done on beef cows. It’s mainly used in dairy farms

          • Rosa Borisova

            What is your point Sir? People’s food doesn’t come from someone else’s stomach. There is a reason why we are not natural born killers/ hunters/ carnivore or omnivore raw, flesh, guts, brains, eyes, fat, testicles and blood eaters… dead or alive!

          • justjoseph

            It has for almost the entire population of the world, for the entire history of mankind…..other than that, I suppose you have a point.

          • justjoseph

            Yeah, and they do this to humans too. Only women dont typically have bovine vaginas. Stop anthropomorphising animals. It just makes you sound even MORE ignorant.
            Grow up.

          • Piperlee

            Rosa is correct, John. It does seem too horrible to believe, but if you do your research you will see for yourself. YouTube has videos of cows being raped, or ‘artificially inseminated’ as they call it.

          • Pisces

            I actually took a three day course on cow AI and let me tell you it is not rape! First of all AI is done because it is far safer for the farmer than using a bull. Bulls when in the presence of a cow in heat is incredibly dangerous to handle even with a ring in their nose to control them. Second the cow doesn’t care. They don’t try to kick you (and believe me the option is there. Only their heads are secure) nor do they express any signs of discomfort or warning signs to kick.

          • Rosa Borisova
          • Pisces

            Says the woman who compares cow AI to rape. Your moral compass must be broken if you think it’s ok to compare AI to one of the most traumatic and degrading experiences a human being can suffer from. Here’s the thing. AI is done when the cow is in heat. Wanna know how we know she’s in heat? When another cow is mounting her. When cows or any animals are in heat, they are ready for mating. If a bull was on the farm, he would be mating her instead of us doing AI on her. That’s how female animals are receptive to mating. If they are in estrus, then they ready to mate. That is there “consent”. Humans are not like that. It doesn’t matter if a woman or man is biologically ready to produce children. If they don’t give consent, then it’s rape. Also cows do not suffer the emotional trauma people do from AI or any forced copulation.

            P.S. these pictures are not sources to back up your point. They are merely propaganda

          • Rosa Borisova

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7315e21cc721b2cb1658dd05e8364fb75a99c66878efccdfac4267a17fa37229.jpg Pisces Don’t be ridiculous. Justifying EVIL activities is NEVER a good idea. It will back – fire. Sooner, rather than later. You can sugarcoat vicious, unnatural, cruel, absurd, unethical behaviours all you want… at the end you will be the losers. Just because you can do something to someone it doesn’t mean you should. You can rape children too, they wouldn’t be able to defend themselves and call the police or their lawyer. Your activities are absolutely disgusting and must be treated as criminal. Just as slavery was several decades ago… animal agriculture is just the same. There’s nothing to justify your outdated, vicious, greedy, barbaric business. It’s EVIL!!!!! The good news is that not everyone is a moron. Most good, compassionate, ethical, human beings know right from wrong. When something doesn’t make sense it’s not true and most importantly it’s wrong. You don’t have to be scientist, jennie or professor to put two and two together, do what is right, not what’s convenient to you only. Animal Agriculture is the worst polluter on planet earth. When people stop to eat, wear and use animal products Global Warming, deforestation, hunger, diseases, wild life extinction, pollution and the violence will STOP. Sooner rather than later karma will catch up with you. Cows have no clue you impregnate them only to viciously rob them over and over again (till are “spend) from their calves milk, murder their only few days old calves like vegetables, for their body parts and skin!!!!! That itself is RAPE AND IS PURE EVIL!!!!! A VIOLATION of their rights as species… not before outdated, crippled law, but before the law of Mother Nature or God if you prefer. Justice is on it’s way. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/168e09f2929f90b61e6e03b3a3e57f6b101fa422f54ee0c1071daaf054baa10a.jpg

          • Christina Arnoldin

            Research it.. you’ll see exactly how it’s done..

          • Joe Zangief

            damn you are ignorant. somebody show this man google

          • Rosa Borisova
          • S Rebecca

            I guess the entire history of human agriculture and farming passed you by, huh? We domesticate cows for milk and meat…its not ridiculous at all we make use of their products as we designed/bred the cow to our purpose via selective breeding.

          • Rosa Borisova

            You’re right YOU “domesticate” other species for profits, killing them as soon as you no longer need them for their own body parts, milk, eggs, skins, bones. YOU TREAT THESE HELPLESS, INNOCENT, DEFENCELESS BEINGS THAT TRUST YOU TO DO THE HUMANE, ETHICAL, RIGHT THING, YET YOU BETRAY THEM. YOU TREAT THEM LIKE TRASH AND CRIMINALS, BUT YOU ARE THE TRASH AND CRIMINALS ROBBING THEM FROM EVERYTHING PRECIOUS TO THEM?! IF YOU PRETEND TO BE “HUMAN” THEN WHERE IS YOUR HUMANITY, WHERE ARE YOUR MORALS, ETHICS, COMPASSION? YOUR ARROGANCE, GREED AND IGNORANCE CREATES NOT ONLY VIOLENCE and ALSO global warming, hunger, pollution, diseases, deforestation, wild life extinction. YOU PLAY DANGEROUS, SELFISH, BRUTAL, CRUEL, SADISTIC GAMES ONLY TO INCREASE YOUR PROFITS. YOU CLEARLY DON’T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT THE ANIMALS, THE PEOPLE, YOUR OWN CHILDREN… AND THAT IS PURE EVIL. When you cheat Mother Nature EVERYONE suffers, including you. In FACT what you do is not only ridiculous but IS also UNETHICAL, UNNATURAL, UNNECESSARY, WRONG, SELF – DESTRUCTIVE, INHUMANE, BARBARIC AND CRIMINAL https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/fb2c4974df226de6387d7dac824624e25357e94d26ff3d7743c22fd8357e2491.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/770ece0a0d9c1650b1766443f85f0852e76669520333eed270a00a4392332d09.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/0c65f6e61a0e77bade9f02bbe07dd2333d7523c2cc6a72e9206b141d4a15688f.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/622887475c47f40c1695070e32aae93c3eec3c4293db162b866a1c6b2cf83ba8.png . ANIMAL AGRICULTURE IS THE WORST DISEASE TO DATE ON EARTH. WAKE UP

          • justjoseph

            God this is such GARBAGE.

          • Rosa Borisova
          • Tracey Frebertshauser

            I believe in karma. I do onto others as I would want done to myself. Because I am a human, not just an animal. Humans seem to forget about holding ethics and morals because that is what makes us a superior species of animals. I would be miserable if I was bred to be enslaved and then killed for food. That is why I live off of fruit because that is the the circle of life. And we have teeth identical to monkeys which are classified as fruigovores. My hands are clean and so is my mind and my body. And it feels good to respect the earth considering that it is my home and a living organism that is being polluted by animal agriculture.

          • Aaron Owens

            The real irony is that there are still vegans who can’t figure out why nobody likes them. Even nature disagrees with you Rosa. Drinking milk from another animal is not normal. The act of one life form eating another life form, very normal and something nature has encouraged for millions of years, since life on earth began. You were clearly not born with the ability to stomach the harsh realities of the world you live in.

          • Chrystal Tiffany Oz

            You keep arguing that nature encourages us to eat meat but the way we farm and process meat is so unnatural.. Nature encourages us to eat vegetables but the average American diet hardly allows room for a serving. People are obese and dying partially because we are eating an abundance of meats and our planet is suffering from the way we are raising the meats. I’m not vegan because I allow myself to eat my neighbor’s pet chickens eggs and fish that my family members catch on line. I even feel bad for the fish but it doesn’t disgust me the way factory farms and mass fishing does.. I gave up milk in one of my final efforts to clear my acne and it worked! Once I saw the effects dairy had on my body I was motivated to cut out meat and I felt great, bloating which I always thought was normal ceased.. Not contributing to the animal suffering which I always knew existed but ignored felt even better.. I don’t push veganism but I definitely can’t say enough good things about it and it’s ridiculous that people still question my judgement about the issue..

          • Rosa Borisova

            There’s nothing wrong with “pushing veganism”!!!!! In fact it’s THE most wonderful, best thing ever anyone can imagine. NEVER BE AFRAID TO TELL THE TRUTH. You know the FACTS and that’s GOOD ENOUPH. IT”S NOT A CRIME TO BE VEGAN… TO RESPECT MOTHER NATURE AND ALL OF IT’S PRECIOUS SPECIES. NOT TO IS!!!!! ONLY PLANT – BASED LIFE – STYLE/ VEGANISM WILL BE ABLE TO STOP POLLUTION, DEFORESTATION, DISEASES, HUNGER, WILD LIFE EXTINCTION, THE VIOLENCE, FLOODS, DISCRIMINATION AND GLOBAL WARMING.

          • justjoseph

            Oh, FACTS, huh? I keep hearing about that cattle industry/methane gas thing from vegans…a study that has been debunked for 7-8 years now. It accounts for just 3% of greenhouse gas emmissions. I’ll bet Rosa and her vegan friends account for more than that in their Subarus. Yet, they still keep spewing out this garbage.

          • Tracey Frebertshauser

            A bogus study done by the animal industry

          • Rosa Borisova

            Justjoseph You wanted facts. I have given you already plenty. Almost every banner has it’s creator’s webpage for further information. Here extra… “GARBAGE” for you Sir… let me know if you want more …. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/727ff8764f2d238f0ee1b6ab16a6dad2ce5e18de7304fdee4cb8f00afefa7ee4.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9e1ddca75c2e266fbff959e6606c648129d22482f891bea27446cb7881b51a30.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f96abdc010b4fa098b1e070b946b0344b7f0e22b15e09e625d7d5e977a181e94.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/575e113ca44ef716706bf10b6215dc87e4de0b11b52f9c8f790c4082b99da510.jpg
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/99e84e124844e14d2961d6906e8d05cf1213be64a889185e14c5be7f9f808045.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/da9a0190d7d0fc5147292e2c51dbaa94b2c3f3c4818a70cf973b003be3376518.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/55c978d9fb10c1d592d6778c318ff35986936d9b9fe2833519f5ba6d556be947.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/34afb9049c8a40941b02a80a9ad32930f406a0933c9bef3185ad3fe6dae13a99.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/742a134ff3a0fcb04406d4ee3cdadbc20c2ce2279e5309dbf1e7bff6e7b7c85f.png https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/3d384edbe3df31316d775605935d00157d59bea47afb698878168f2372231c63.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9e86ffe1113cba2f2955f04d1e4cf1d2b9dd6b6a679591dcbdc45e36fd46f33b.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/032185d0ee1b300085f7e78cebf964a89818fdd21e380ef908ca55a16aa85849.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/645e9a554efc3d8e83bddab8253938c8d436d378c9c3d3310ade79cbcfcfb111.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7be0f7e078f5ddf5b7c16a2d7fcf526aa9315dc8f07eb708224d0530acba5328.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/2b61bce935881c1c6375df83ec6a84007ce855f830860ab7abe3dfacfb24e69b.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a0ea3fcfed3ae80d4a9f52493f859d4d12070ac1fec79bc591c26849d68c2418.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c2049d813a683200f3cdfb032d7eb900281a626756e7ca1cd3a5e9dab2d78b76.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/363d3437cc2b81fd1b1e17cb550a3b3454acb575867640d9c5f9a83d071357aa.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/44dde6bec095756cb882bd69d77a8f09b1e610d10a72a89f668168874989e87e.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/43172497d0aa69663e1861960b3f0da1e01df7876b91023d5de12482f0d096db.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/94cdd476cef6713c26952e8516b2ddd83846c69dcd95692113592ab08cce5834.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8b7a72972e36ce5cc2c7ceb5399d41845d0a68660bb2af6cda025220fc5f1ac6.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/11d501385c73b497da50136fa07a74b6c79493c2fdd9abd62b5f9fccc5153f55.jpg

          • justjoseph

            Its your own damn buisiness what YOU choose to eat. But its just plain annoying bullshit to tell thousands of years of the worlds civilization that your whole basis for life is somehow cruel, unethical and unconscionable.

          • Tracey Frebertshauser

            It’s your own business what you eat???? Okay then I’m going to put you in a cage and fatten you up, kill you and eat you. It’s MY business. We decide as people on ethics, what is acceptable. And this is downright unacceptable what is being done to the animals!!!!!

          • Rosa Borisova

            Sir “The real irony” is that there are still many individuals like you who can’t or/and don’t want to see further than their noses. Wether you or any other idiot “doesn’t like” vegans isn’t my problem and don’t give damn. Too bad for YOU. You choose to stay in the medieval age and stuff yourself with anything you like but don’t destroy my planet, air, rivers and massacre other sentient, innocent living being for profits and to satisfy your crippled, perverted, moronic ideas, taste and “traditions”! Grow up and stop acting like someone you’re not. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/2f730d12eb390275a8bff904a065073b6bbae81c8e6bb7394a616d5166ce133e.jpg

          • justjoseph

            STFU and stop lying.

          • justjoseph

            Yup, and they’ve been doing this for millenia…not straight off the teat..folks not as ignorant as yourselves might be aware that that’s not sanitary. Its called “modern civilization” and its been established for millenia. Cheese making has been elevated to a fine art, and it is an important part of the cuisines of lots of 2nd-3rd world countries that
            dont have frozen vegan entrees in their markets ( yeah, markets lol)

          • Rosa Borisova

            justjoseph Your stupidity and ignorance seem endless. To call outdated, perverted, absurd, barbaric, savage behaviours “modern civilization” and “a fine art” is ludicrous. It’s like calling slavery, rape, exploitation of children and women “modern civilization”and “fine art” because it was “established for millennia”too. Naaa, don’t expect any logical answers from you because you have none. Never did… you’re just like cheap clown who desperately try to make people lough. Let’s see, how far are you willing to continue, defending EVIL, which obviously is quite absurd and foolish. like, fighting bare handedly with a giant anaconda… LOL. Good luck with that….

          • Rosa Borisova
          • justjoseph

            Things that are vegan:
            Opiates
            Steriods
            Strycnine
            Hemlock
            And I dont see vegans out feeding the hungry.
            Plenty of farmers do this.

          • Rosa Borisova

            justjoseph Animal Agriculture is Polluting the environment, enslaves, exploits, uses, abuses and massacre one 65 billon innocent animals for profits and 5 min. palate pleasure. We are only & billion! 80% Of the farm lands is used to feed these animals instead of feeding people.
            – 50% of water goes towards raising farm animals animals for food.
            – 74.5% Of global green house gases come from farm animals – more than trains, cars and airplanes combined.
            – For ONE veggie burger are needed: 42 gallons of water and ONE beef burger – 621 gallons of water.
            – One Lt. milk – 1000 Lt. water.
            – For one kg. beef is needed 32+ sq. meters of land,
            – One kg. of pork 20+ sq. m. land,
            – One kg. of chicken 18 sq. m.,
            – One kg. of eggs 18 sq. m.of land,
            – One kg. fruits about 2 meters,
            – One kg. potatoes 1 sq. m. and 1/2, and
            – One kg. veggies less than a meter.
            – Oceans are depleted thanks to overfishing. 195+ million tonnes of fish is pulled every year. Do the math and your own home work Sir if you don’t want to sound incompetent as I was 15 years ago.

          • Piperlee

            Ahh, justjoseph. So you are invested in the animal abuse industry. Good to know.

          • Cheryl

            It’s beyond me how anyone could read this and not see the logic. Blinders on nice and tight ☹️

          • Rosa Borisova

            Cheryl Thank you. Same here. The good news is that not everyone is a moron. I’ll never give up. If anything ignorant individuals are encouraging me to do better and more. One day they will understand too, let’s hope it’s not going to be too late. XO

          • Rosa Borisova
          • Rosa Borisova
          • Aaron Owens

            “Pure evil”. So something that nature allowed and encouraged in the wild is morally evil? According to who? Nature? The same nature that allowed for the existence of predators and encouraged an often brutal food chain? Morally evil according to god? The same god (assuming god even exists) that allowed and encouraged for the existence of predators and a food chain? If nature or god allowed for predators, then how do you know it is morally evil? It is your subjective opinion that it is morally evil. It is not my opinion. If eating meat was truly a moral evil, natural predators would likely not exist and every life form would be vegan. But as most people are aware, that is clearly not the case. We live in a world where there are over 600 species of carnivorous plants. Let that sink in for a moment.

          • Lori Van Buren

            Aaron, you seriously need to watch the documentary “Earthlings” or “Meet Your Meat” and you would see the viewpoint of a vegan. C’mon. I dare you.

          • justjoseph

            I’ll bet Rosa has never spent a single day actually witnessing agricuture. And this shit, you hope you can just keep saying it and people who dont know will believe it.

          • Rosa Borisova
          • Aaron Owens

            My name is spelled with two A’s. Thank you.

          • Rosa Borisova
          • Aaron Owens

            Life feeds on life. Welcome to planet earth.

          • Dwayne Robbie
          • justjoseph

            That “Eco-Logical” should be recaptioned “Fantasy”
            the Ego-logical should be captioned “The attitudes which explains why vegans have few friends”

          • S Rebecca

            I eat cow…raised for the purpose of being beef and dairy. In some cultures, dogs and cats are raised for food. As I eat cow, I cant complain that someone else eats a cat.

          • Rosa Borisova
          • Joe Zangief

            meat = cancer

            have a nice life. enjoy

          • Aaron Owens

            And then vegans wonder why nobody likes them.

          • Rosa Borisova

            VEGANS DON’T GIVE A DAMN IF YOU “LIKE” THEM OR NOT. I DON’T!!!!! IT’S YOUR LOSS. IT’S ABOUT TELLING THE TRUTH – AS IS… THAT’S ALL. TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT… NOT EVERYONE IS A MORRON…. IF YOU “LIKE” THE FOLLOWING BANNERS” YOU NEED SERIOUS HELP, SEE PSYCHIATRIST, THE SOONER -THE BETTER. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a11643a3eabf319328ec99b346ebb40b7791a91d6adcc5e50df18cd9cfc45705.jpg .

          • Tom Hardy

            Dude, you missed the keyword: KILLING. Doesn’t matter who was raised how, a life is a life.

          • SLW YT1

            Clearly you’re not a vegan if you define one animal as a pet and the other as food and can’t see how eating both is just as bad, the point is that ALL animals want to live and ALL animals have the same right to do so! Eating one is just as bad as the other! You’re argument doesn’t even make any sense as in some countries people actually do eat cat and dog! Your brain has created a distinction to justify why it’s okay for you to love one but eat another, which is exactly what the article is about!

          • justjoseph

            Vegans have NO RIGHT to have “pets”.
            These animals should be allowed to do and go and eat as they please.

          • Katrina

            Aaron Wtf is wrong with you

          • Katrina

            Obviously they are different, but that doesn’t mean one has the more of a right to live than the other.

          • cb57

            You must have been paid by the author of this article, Aaron, to showcase the anger of non-vegans against vegans!

          • Brian Lesko

            Lighten up, Steve. I’m a vegan myself and even I think you need to grow some balls.

          • Adam Hommey

            I get it, and you’re right.

          • Joe Zangief

            fuck you

          • Rosa Borisova

            Matt Dick Just shut up … your sense of entitlement and arrogance are astonishing and most importantly – counterproductive and useless. Get out of your outdated, crippled world if you want to do better than this….

      • Rosa Borisova
      • Micaela Marguerite Kerley

        Ha ha ha! Trolls!

    • Rosa Borisova
    • justjoseph

      Dog is actually raised for food in China, has been for milennia.
      Typical vegan ignorance.

  • Agnos

    Sorry but people hates all kind of fanatics and close minded people, and sadly a lot of vegans are that. Some of them are so violent and full of rage attacking others who don’t share their way of thinking, that is very disgusting. I’m pro veganism, but we have to learn to respect peoples choices, we don’t have the truth in us!… RESPECT to be RESPECTED!.

    • Maria Lukic

      Choosing to eat others is choosing to support violence.

      Respect is earned, not given.

      • Agnos

        Well, then do not expect the no vegan people respect the vegan people!.

        • Maria Lukic

          Asking vegans to respect your decision to eat meat is on par
          with asking feminists to respect sexists, asking people of color to respect
          racists and asking homosexuals to respect homophobes. It is ludicrous to think
          that difference in opinion warrants mutual respect, especially when the
          opposing opinion in question not only stands for everything you are against but
          also appropriates suffering, defends oppression, and encourages the continuance
          of exploitation.

          • Jayson Repko

            Exactly

          • Theresa Easley

            So just because someone believes differently from you when it comes to homosexuality, feminism, veganism that means they shouldn’t be shown respect? We are a diverse people with diverse views, you know.

          • Shiprex

            Having a belief isn’t what this is about. This is about an action.
            Would you respect a paedophile just because they haven’t been convicted but you knew what they’d done?

          • Maria Lukic

            @Theresa sounds like you are all for people respecting racists, sexists, and homobes. I would not respect a slave owner just as a slave abolitionist would not respect them. take the time to fully read and understand what I’ve written. Then come back to me with a sensible reply if you have one.

          • Kim

            This one’s my favorite! People can believe whatever they want, but as a society, we agree that they can not do whatever they want. Can you love the idea of slavery and feel nostalgic about not having a kitchen maid? Sure. Do I have to respect that or treat it like a legitimate argument? Nope. You might believe that chaining your kid to a radiator for 3 days is an appropriate punishment for spilling grape juice on your white carpet. Does that mean that anyone has to take that seriously or care what your beliefs about child rearing are? Not even a little bit. What you are talking about is not diversity. If we embraced all types of diversities, there wouldn’t be mental institutions, rehab units and correctional facilities. To speak to Shiprex’s point (I don’t know him, so I’m only guessing), what 99% of produced animal product really is is a representation of hideous crimes against animals. Crimes that, when caught on film, have led to prosecutions, fines and occasionally, the closing of a facility. What’s been done about this, because people want to keep consuming, crimes be damned! is that is continues without question. It has become illegal, in some states, to even show people what factory farming looks like. Do you suppose that’s for your health or theirs?

          • Agnos

            When you think you are doing things right, there will be always, and I say ALWAYS, other things you’ll be doing it wrong. Unless you are an “all concerned guy”, I’m pretty sure, If you have some gadget, you (we) are supporting the salvery in some country and a lot of Human Rights issues, but that doesn’t gives the right to a Human Rights Activist to insult you, right?.

          • Gavin Smart

            I do not believe for one second you are a true vegan as you’re using the same tired old argument I’ve heard from a thousand meat eaters. The fact that someone uses a phone that was made by low paid child workers (are there any phones that aren’t) does not invalidate their choice to take themselves out of the murder industry and choose a plant based diet.

            I’ve lost count of the amount of times meat eaters have tried to pick fault in my choices because I drive a car, use electricity, etc etc.

            The fact is there are some things we can easily do and some things that will only happen through political pressure and protests.

            Becoming a conscious consumer is more than just about what we ea, but everybody knows now that eating meat is cruel and is destroying the planet so those that still do are either too young to know better, in a state of denial or are just plain selfish, whatever the reason they need to be told.

            I had many friends tell me I was being an asshole when I still ate meat and I argued with them but now I wish they’d been more pushy with me. My only regret is that it took me so long to wake up.

          • Agnos

            It is true what you have said. I don’t eat meat, but thinking again I’m not a part of your collective at all, because I don’t like how some of you do things and I don’t share some of your opinions, and according to the way of thinking of some vegans, “I have to agree” and I don’t.

            So, to be a true vegan or true whatever, I have to support what others say, or I have to agree whatever other vegan or etc say?. No thanks, I don’t need a collective to feel supported or to support my ideas. I do not like the sects of any kind!.

            What I was saying and you don’t get the point with my example of samsung is, that nobody has the right to insult you or attacked you because of your choice or beacue you are doing something that they consider wrong (if someone will take the nonsense talking about pedophilia, please don’t do it, thanks). That is what some vegans does for example to the people that wears furs. It’s great to educate people to let them know what they are using and the cruelty involved in what they wear, but attacking them throwing paint or screaming some insult. I think is not a great way to change minds, that makes the opposite!.

            I think is great to teach someone else other way of thinking, other way of life, but I’m against when someone wants to push others to do what he thinks.

            It seems nobody wants to see the point, reading some comments it’s looks like: “my cause is the biggest cause, the correct one, the greatest and the more important. I have the truth, I have the right to defend my cause with whatever I have to do, if you dont agree you are wrong and f*** y**!. You will be always wrong and I will be always right even if I’m doing it wrong too”. I’m not a religious guy but this is very truth: “You see the mote in your brother’s eye, but you do not see the beam in your own eye”.

            I’m leaving the nonsense, “we all have the reason and the truth”, “we are all perfect”. Have all of you a good day! ;).

          • Luci Bloom

            I was trying to articulate the exact same argument just last night with some vegans I know. I feel the same way totally…even if I don’t eat meat. The way many vegans approach their methods for conversion just rub me the wrong way.

            You may not have to respect other peoples choices in what they eat, but if you go and yell at them or talk down to them then there is no way in hell your intention of getting through to them is going to do what you want…in fact it will only turn them further away because no one enjoys a pushy salesperson forcing their views onto them…regardless of how righteously angry and beneficial veganism is to the planet. You all shoot yourselves in the foot.

          • Maria Lukic

            If that “Human Rights Activist” isn’t vegan, then he’s not a human rights activist. Single issue campaigns never work, because the problem is in the roots of our violence and inability to recognise the sentience and importance of all life.
            “For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, he who sows the seed of murder and pain cannot reap joy and love.” ~ Pythagoras

          • Lavos

            Lol please shut up , nobody cares about the animals , go with a Lion or a bear to see if they wont kill u , and eat u , stop caring for animals who doesnt give a shit for you , humans will eat meat fruits vegetables fish and anything it can be eaten. soo stop with ur stupid nonsense shit

            You will never win against the glorious meat eaters.

          • Maria Lukic

            The only person who is stupid here is you, thinking you’re a “glorious meat eater”. Yeah, it’s very glorious to not have to do the killing yourself but let someone else who’s not even earning a minimum wage and exposed to dangerous equipment do it, to not have to gut and skin the animal and be surrounded by the stench of death, blood and bile, to cook the meat before you eat it so you don’t get food poisoning. Yeah I’ve heard this stupid babble before from meat heads like you, you’re nothing special. There’s nothing glorious about eating someone’s death body. But it takes someone with intelligence, morals, and compassion to determine this. And you’re lacking all of those qualities. Even Native Americans had respect for the animals they killed, and they only took/hunted as much as was needed to survive. You have sold your humanity and your respect for the stupid and shallow consumerism “I-don’t-give-a-damn” mentality.

            More and more people are becoming vegetarians and vegans every year, so yes we are winning.

          • Emily

            Just look at that grammar. That Lavos person can barely spell or string words together. Of course this argument is lost on them and their IQ of 82. Let’s not waste our time.

          • Vivi Siow

            You’re part of the reason why everyone is hating on each other. Kindly stop insults at least,please?

          • Emily

            Yes. It gives the Human Rights Activist the right to educate [insult] us.

            I would thank him for sharing his knowledge, change my behavior, and wish I learned the facts earlier.

          • Amanda Holley

            I dont respect folks for eating meat … but I do respect that they need the space to get the issues without being condemned in the process. I have many meat-eating friends, many of them are more evolved than many vegans I have met. Evolution isnt linear. Who am I to know what is really going on? IN which case, I can honour someone and hold the space for expanding awareness.

          • Agnos

            Wow, you are the people that I respect!.

          • Pete Lewis

            Maybe your friends ‘get the issues’ but eat meat anyway even weighing up the ethics and health issues because thats what works for them and their view of the world?

          • lordwobblynob

            So what you’re saying is that by virtue of not being a Vegan, I am not worthy of respect as I am on par with a homophobe or racist (i’ll compared to a nazi next)? You realise this runs entirely counter to what the article is saying and you are simply enforcing the stereotype of the angry militant vegan? Then you wonder why people are defensive around vegans…
            Presumably you would extend this disdain to anyone with an omnivorous or carnivorous pet, animal shelters that house and protect rescued omnivores and carnivores, and anyone in a third world country where they have no choice but to use animal based products?

          • Maria Lukic

            By virtue of you or anyone exploiting others/supporting their exploitation and not having a problem with it and trying to justify it to me. That I will not respect.
            I know there are vegans out there who are too afraid or concerned about voicing their true opinions on this matter to their friends or family. I’m not one of those individuals, and I don’t care what people like you think of vegans. We are trying to live without causing unnecessary harm to others for the sake of palate pleasure or convenience, the majority of the population does not. These are the facts, I will not sugar coat them for anyone. You either support animal exploitation by continuing to buy animal based foods, or you don’t.
            With regards to pets – I’ve had dogs for most of my life, they have always been vegetarian/vegan and have lived happy, full, and long lives. I have had a vegan cat when I was a child and she was 19 years old when she passed away peacefully in her sleep. She was healthy and full of energy all her life.
            People in third world countries eat a lot less animal based foods than those in first world countries.
            If you have absolutely no other choice (it’s kill to eat or starve) then I can understand and will respect that. Otherwise no, not when there is a plethora of animal free foods to eat and buy in your local shop.

          • lordwobblynob

            But it’s ok to exploit humans through purchasing sweat shop produced items, as that’s convenient? Or what about shopping in supermarkets wherein workers are barely paid a living wage? Or many other examples of exploitation that happen on a daily basis. I hazard a guess that you consume soya products and yet feel no guilt over the effects that this has on the environment where the soya is grown? I’ve seen it first hand, you should feel guilt over that, it’s not just trees that are cut down, it’s habitat for animals (before you counter – i don’t eat meat so no, i don’t eat animals fed on soya).
            Are you aware of the term ‘obligate carnivore’ and what it means? Having a Cat (or to a lesser extent, a dog) as a pet, and making it eat a vegan diet is, in itself, a form of exploitation. The product in this sense, that you’re ‘extorting’ from the cat is companionship whilst denying it the diet it has evolved/was created to eat, it has a biological need to consume animal proteins (arguing that it lived to 19 is a logical fallacy – my grandmother lived to 96 and smoked from the age of 12, does that make smoking healthy?). And yet you’re happy to draw that line?
            If we take the dictionary definition of exploitation (the action or fact of treating someone/something unfairly in order to benefit from their work), you are only exploiting an animal when you treat it unfairly. Ethically produced eggs, wool, even at a stretch milk etc, is not on par with eating meat and is not, exploitation. Ignoring for a moment that without this ‘exploitation’ these animals would cease to exist as who’s going to farm chickens or sheep purely as pets whilst discarding the wool and eggs?
            “people like you” Interesting that you know so much about me from one post as to be able to judge me on it and put me into a tidy little pigeon hole with others… feels somewhat akin to prejudice to me.
            You wrote on a separate thread “If animals were meant to be eaten…” This suggests to me you’re a deist; you believe animals have a preordained purpose from on high? It also completely flies in the face of biology whether or not you believe in god, you must surely recognise that animals eat animals. We either evolved on an omnivorous diet or were created to consume one (the bible even says to exploit animals, if you go for that particular flavour of imaginary friend).I make this point, not to detract from the point or indeed to support eating flesh, but to highlight that your logic is flawed and inconsistent.
            Judging others, as you do in your posts, because they don’t share your particular morality is exactly what is wrong with veganism as widely practiced and why it will always be on the sidelines of society. Should you wish to progress the ’cause’ and help people come round to your way of thinking, you don’t do so starting from a position wherein they are not worthy of respect. You’ve made it very clear in your posts that you have nothing but disdain for those that don’t live to your moral compass and I have nothing but disdain for people that express such narrow mindedness dogmatic views.
            As a point of interest, what about lab produced meat proteins? This is where no animal is killed or harmed but cells are grown to form proteins akin to meat.

          • Maria Lukic

            I was very amused by your comment. For one, you’ve made a lot of assumptions about me and how I live my life, which tells me everything you know about veganism – nothing.
            Veganism opposes ANY form of exploitation. Humans are animals, so yes I oppose the exploitation of human beings wherever I can – and yes this includes my wardrobe.
            So because I had a cat, I should have been exploiting hundreds, if not thousands, of other animals, to feed my cat? I’m sorry, but this is highly illogical – why should I exploit other animals if my companion can live healthy (in her case her health improved) and longer lives? It doesn’t make sense to prioritise my cat above other animals. When we adopted her, she was riddled with tumours in her liver and we were told she wasn’t going to live for more than a year (mind you she was scheduled to be euthanised the day we adopted her). From the day we had her we fed her nothing but quality and home prepared plant based foods. We went back to the vet a year later and he was shocked that not only was she alive, but she was healthy and as active as a kitten – all her tumours were gone. Animals have been exploited by the very fact that humans domesticated them. So there’s not much that vegans can do but adopt them and try to reduce the damage that our ancestors did.
            Pandas are “obligate carnivores” too, but instead they eat nothing but plants. Are you going to go and shove meat down their gullets and call their handlers immoral and accuse them of exploiting them for not feeding them meat? I thought not.
            Chickens have been here long before humans were. If you let them out into the wild it won’t be long before you have wild chickens. Cows as well. Why do you feel the need to justify their exploitation? Taking the milk from a cow or goat is taking the milk away from their offspring. You or I do not need to drink cow or goat milk just as we don’t need to drink dog milk, cat milk, giraffe milk, hippo milk, or anything other than the milk our mother gave us from her own body when we were born. So just because they are treated a bit better than other cows, it still doesn’t justify taking things from their bodies that wasn’t designed for humans.
            It’s funny that you bring up soy – all the meat heads I’ve had the pleasure of conversing/debating with always bring up soy. Tbh I hate soy milk, I prefer hazelnut, oat, coconut, or rice milk. And it’s a lot easier to buy ethically sourced soy and other plant based products than meat, eggs, and dairy.
            “You wrote on a separate thread “If animals were meant to be eaten…” This suggests to me you’re a deist”. No my dear, merely from an evolutionary stand point. I am agnostic.
            I’m glad you brought up animals eating animals. They do this because it’s in their nature, and they have no other choice – I have yet to see a cheetah or other predator start an agricultural revolution. You and I on the other hand live in a world where we can go to our local farmers to buy plant produce, or visit local markets and supermarkets. That’s the difference between the human animal and the non humans out there – we have a choice, and sadly people choose to exploit non human animals.
            With regards to judging, you will find that every abolitionist vegan out there will judge you on your words and views concerning animal rights and the use of animal products. I do not respect the immoral choices people make by eating meat; however that does not mean I do not give them consideration or feel hatred towards them, on the contrary. I hope that people will one day realise the significance of life, not just the significance of human life, and to show respect to all sentient life forms and the planet. I believe that deep down people are inherently good, we’ve just lost our way with nature and stability. We try to control everything and everyone around us, but our mission should be be achieve and maintain balance.

            It’s funny, if you didn’t say that you didn’t eat meat in your comment, I would have mistaken you for a head strong meat eater…

          • lordwobblynob

            I think you misunderstand what the term ‘obligate carnivore’ means. A carnivore is an animal that eats meat , that a panda doesn’t eat meat means it’s not a carnivore. It has the physiology of a Carnivore but due to an interesting symbiosis with gut bacteria, they’re able to eat vegetation.
            An olbigate carnivore is an animal that HAS to eat animal proteins, in the case of cats is due to their inability to create Taurine, so they need it from their diet. As you can only get Taurine from animal proteins, they need to eat meat. That your cat didn’t die only means that somewhere in its diet was a synthetic source of Taurine.
            The reduction in cancerous cells is largely explained due to switching away from mass produced pet ‘food’ which is packed with known carcinogens.
            I’m not arguing that not eating meat is a bad thing, i haven’t eaten another vertebrate for a little over seven years. It’s your lack of respect for your fellow humans that I take issue with (you yourself said you don’t respect non vegans and draw parallels with racists and homophobes). I’ve made no assumptions about you that i am aware of. I’ve had to make a couple of presumptions, but that’s the nature of this kind of discussion, but i’ve been careful to base any of these on the information you’ve provided. Where you disagree with this, I’d ask you to note them.
            I have chickens, four in total. They are, realistically, pets. However, a by product of this is that three of them produce eggs which we then eat. Were we to simply keep them as pets and discard the eggs, somehow you seem to think this is better? Explain the exploitation there.
            If you think that cows and chickens could simply be released into the wild, i suggest to reassess what you ‘know’ of their past. There is no such thing as a wild dairy cow. Were they released into the wild they would die from secondary infections as a result of mastitis and other complications as they now produce far more milk that their offspring would consume. In fact the majority of farmed animals have been so heavily selectively bred of the last ten thousand years that few could survive in the wild, even if a habitat were available to them.
            So you think there is a purpose behind evolution; that animals have nervous systems means they are not meant to be eaten? and yet you concede that other animals eat animals, thereby suggesting that they are indeed meant to be eaten as these species have evolved together to for a predator/prey symbiotic relationship (remove the predators and the prey out breed for their environment and die off due to a lack of food, meaning that as a species they need selective predation, not by humans I hasten to add).

          • Maria Lukic

            I know very well what obligate carnivores are. If I had the chance to go back in time and feed my cat differently, I still would have made the same choice because she had a very productive and happy life, and I would not have wanted to change that for the world. I will say again – there is no moral justification for me to have exploited thousands of other animals to feed my cat when there are other options and specifically formulated vegan cat foods that you can purchase.

            A panda fits every text book description of a carnivore – length of intestines, teeth, jaw, claws…etc. A panda is a carnivore, yet they eat plants.

            Animals in the wild will do whatever it takes to survive. Deer have been known to catch and eat fish if there is no food.
            You trying to justify your stance on obligate carnivores by bringing my treatment and care of my cat, whom I loved as a member of my family, is absurd.

            Yes you’re right there’s no such thing as a dairy cow in the wild, because she gives her milk to her offspring, not people, and is not pumped with hormones and antibiotics to MAKE them produce more milk. Cows in their natural habitat, free from human control, do not develop mastitis.

            You presumed that because I have no respect for the choices people make in eating animal products that I do not have any respect for them at all, or that I do not value humanity. I am human, and I want humanity to wake up and realise that the consumption of animals and other animal products is unsustainable and not only detrimental to our health, but to our planet. I value human life, because I know that when humans want to and when they believe in something worth fighting for they can achieve unbelievable things, show incredible feats of heroism, altruism, and compassion. How many times must I say this – I will not respect the CHOICE you make in eating your pet chicken’s periods, or the dairy you buy from your local farmer/market. Why? Because there is absolutely no reason for you to be consuming these things. You only eat it because it’s convenient, or you’re used to it, but that’s not an excuse. The meat, dairy, and eggs diet is a lazy one. I don’t doubt that you care about your chickens, but ask yourself this: do you REALLY need to eat their menstrual cycles? Think of it this way: if you had a dog, she got pregnant and had her puppies; would you take her milk? Of course you wouldn’t! You have no need for her milk, just like you have no need of the eggs your chickens lay.

            As for evolution, no animals were “meant” to be eaten. Not all plants are meant to be eaten either, but some of them have evolved to develop symbiotic relationships with animals and rely on their fruits being eaten to spread their seeds.

            The number of predators is far less than the number of prey animals in the wild. It’s natures way of population control and ecological stability. If you want an example of this, watch How Wolves Change Rivers, it’s readily available on YouTube.

            If you really want to try to understand my stance and why I fervently believe no animal products should be consumed by humans, please read or watch some of Gary Francione’s works and interviews: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO8NXatlQhc
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ5LU4DhFtk&list=PLYcAeSd5k-mQYJb7UVOLTh0t5GrSAfapZ

            Not using nonhuman animals as resources is a first step to a nonviolent life. It’s the minimum standard of DECENCY.

          • Vivi Siow

            The funny thing is you’re kill plants to eat too. Do you all not see that it’s still a life for a life?

          • aD1cted

            asking vegans to respect someone’s choice on eating mean is not the same as asking feminists to respects sexist, but rather asking feminists to respect someone’s different opinion on the matter (ex. thinking men and women can never be the same) this kind of opinion doesn’t make the person sexist btw

          • Maria Lukic

            You have clearly not understood the glaring message of discrimination in my comments. Don’t try to twist my words to suit your needs.

          • aD1cted

            And what are those needs exactly?
            You know there’s a difference between Respect and Acceptance and I think you’re making confusion.
            You don’t have to accept anybody’s opinions or thoughts, their going against what you stand for and support things you don’t support…
            But you should respect the fact that others don’t share your point of view. And there’s another difference here – you don’t have to respect their opinion, just respect the fact that they think differently.

            I get your reason to be vegan, but you’re method of sharing your opinion won’t really make people understand. If when you argument you make an insult it won’t help much. I just kept sharing my opinion with my mother (we just eat too much meat, mom, some more vegetables would really be great [I can’t argue with the animal violence and conditions because we don’t eat beef and the animals we eat come from farms with great conditions, space and care, and are killed when they start getting old, instead off letting them die naturally and then have a dead body]) and now we eat much less animals (my dad and brother still don’t get it), but little is better than nothing. But if I had been the way you are I doubt my mom would have changed the menu.

          • Maria Lukic

            “You know there’s a difference between Respect and Acceptance and I think you’re making confusion.” No, I am not. I don’t have to respect people’s twisted views. It’s like asking me to have some understanding/be more “gentle” with my choice of words when it comes to people who are bullies or think that might equals right. No! I will not be lenient or respectful to those TYPES of views/opinions, just as I won’t respect an animal abuser, a child molester, a rapist, a racist – anyone who is discriminating against someone they believe to be weaker. You may as well tell a slave abolitionist that they should stop petitioning and fighting for the freedom of human slaves. That’s just plain ridiculous! THIS is what is wrong with this world and, unfortunately, everyone has “accepted” that everyone has a “right to their opinion” and we should be respectful of that. I’m sorry, but when that OPINION, or should I say “different way of thinking”, involves BULLYING those weaker than you, there’s NOTHING that should be respected or accepted about that.

            It’s unfortunate that you have accepted the type of world we live in and the mentality of bullies instead of standing up for what you believe in. The world is what WE make of it!

            “I get your reason to be vegan, but you’re method of sharing your opinion won’t really make people understand. If when you argument you make an insult it won’t help much.” Oh people understand compassion and kindness alright, they just need to understand that if it’s wrong to eat a dog or a cat, it’s wrong to eat any animal and their bodily secretions. I’ve seen omnis calling Asians barbarians and low-brow savages – which is racist and discrimination when they themselves are chowing down on the mutilated flesh of an animal. You don’t need to eat animals to get nutrients, they are readily available and in their pure forms from plants, beans, seeds, nuts, legumes, and fruits. I find it amusing that telling people the truth is considered “insulting”. Really? I find it insulting that over 56billion land animals and over a TRILLION marine animals are killed for gluttony….now THAT is insulting.

            “we don’t eat beef and the animals we eat come from farms with great conditions, space and care, and are killed when they start getting old, instead off letting them die naturally and then have a dead body]) and now we eat much less animals”. You are still paying for someone to kill them. You are supporting their exploitation. And how old is “old”? You do know that the average lifespan of a chicken is 8-10 years right? Ducks – 10 to 15 years, depending on species. Pigs about 8 years, 10-12 years for sheep…etc. What gives humans the right to decide who lives and who dies and what their purpose in life should be? Just like we don’t kill our cats and dogs when they get a bit old and weary we shouldn’t be killing off “food” animals.

            You’re not the only one with an omni family btw. I’ve helped my family to reconsider animal products not by being gentle with them and acting like a mouse in a lion’s den, but by educating them and making them understand WHY consuming animal products is detrimental. It’s a learning process, and learning can sometimes be difficult and uncomfortable, especially when the truth goes against everything you’ve been taught your whole life. My father is a professional basketball player and 5 years ago was a hardcore meat eater thinking he needed to eat animals to get protein. After he was told that he was getting too old and that they might have to let him go because his performance was dropping, I sat him down and we had a very long discussion about animal products and he decided to become vegan. Now he’s almost 48 years old and still plays professional basketball – his performance is even better than the players half his age – and if he read your comment now he would say that if I didn’t push him and challenge him, he would be fat, sad, and out of a job that he loves. If you want CHANGE, you have to DO something about it, and the best thing you can do is educate people and challenge them to THINK FOR THEMSELVES. Skirting around the issue will not help.

          • Vivi Siow

            Huh,I got a mail but couldn’t find your reply anywhere in the blog,so I’ll comment to you here.
            No,I am not unethical for eating meat. What is unethical is how the animals are tortured to death when they could’ve died quickly and painlessly.
            Yes,I do not like to see animals tortured,no,I do not need to go vegan to avoid contributing to animal torture. Killing them quickly and painlessly is not torture,especially since we’re not going to waste their meat.
            Ok,here’s strike one for insulting me by calling me ‘stupid’. Now you see why I’m telling you all to stop insulting each other?
            Haha!Just because animals are sentient and plants are not(and saying they don’t feel pain because they’re not sentient) it gives you the right to eat them? Gives you the right to support the uprooting and killing of every single plant? What is the difference between killing animals and killing a plant?That they don’t feel the PAIN? You’re killing them,it’s still a life. They’re living beings. What makes you so different from the meat eaters? They eat meat,you eat plant. You both eat a life to sustain your own life. If it’s just because animals are sentient and plants are not,it does not make it OK. would it be ok to kill humans who are not sentient…? You admit that plants are alive. What gave you the right to take its life,then? What gave any of us the right to eat meat and plants? It’s to survive,no?
            Which is,again,why I say ending animals quickly and painlessly is better than torture. Unlike some of you,some of us can’t survive without meat,and not because of its flavour but for health reasons. You can argue that there are studies that shows it’s possible,and yes,it’s POSSIBLE but not to everyone.
            Ok,so you withstand such a ‘cruel’ world Everyday,seeing adverts and stuff shoved in your face and someone shoving a dead fish to your face to sell it. How would they know you’re vegan?and Does that give you the right to sprout insults to other people online? Look,I had seen someone saying they’d wring someone’s neck over their opinion on being a meat eater on this blog,even. I dare say that meat eaters are getting the same ‘cruel words’ from you vegans,and some of you threatening to murder someone isn’t good,is it? You’re not the only one. And both groups throwing profanities and insults and whatnot…just makes things worse.
            I’m going to say that,yes,the humans who can’t work computers or do work would still be more intelligent than other species. No,I am not a speciesist. The definition of it is that it’s the belief that all other species other than human are inferior and therefore MAY BE USED FOR THE HUMAN BENEFIT WITHOUT REGARD OF THE SUFFERING INFLICTED. Or ‘intolerance or discrimination on the basis of species’. Discrimination as a word can be used as UNJUST prejudice. Since I am with regard for the suffering inflicted to animals,and was stating a fact that animals are less intelligent(it’s not unjust. Thus,not discrimination.),I am not a speciesist. It is not that animals are not intelligent at all,but humans have more intelligence. If you don’t admit this,I don’t know what will. Humans invented fire,built computers,use the internet and can communicate in complex ways. Made a code,get the same species to understand certain meanings. And are currently still inventing new things Everyday,and somehow realise that the earth is in danger. I doubt animals would know about science. That said,I’m not going to even bother talking to you about your comparison of a racist and sexist to a speciesist. Pretty sure someone refuted that somewhere on this blog,why don’t you go read that?I’m not eloquent enough to translate.
            well,it’s up to you weather you believe I actually care for animals. I mean,I can only tell you I am but you’ll never see me actually helping around,because I’m talking and commenting to you online. 70% of the grain goes to animals?Ok,so take that away from the animals and leave them to die?Remember what I said about vegan diet?Its not for everyone. say,if you have a plan of action on converting animal food for human use,what’s going to happen to the animals that were raised as livestock? If you’re going to feed them too,there’s going to be more land needed. Which would probably damage more stuff…industrial agriculture and all that. Oh,and strike two! You used the word ‘damn’.
            Yeah,and i know you think so. Stop trying to intentionally shame others just because they eat meat by the use of ‘unethical,contributing to animal abuse’ words to convince them to go vegan. Use words like ‘stop contributing to certain factories that torture animals to death before serving it to your plate’ and etc. Pretty sure no one would go contribute to that factory if news got out,unless they don’t care where their meat came from.

          • Enceladus

            I’ve come to the conclusion that you are indeed a tool and a troll.

          • Vivi Siow

            I actually have a screenshot of what you typed to me. I Guess you’re the troll,since I can’t find that reply anywhere… not sure what you mean about the tool. I mean,no one’s controlling me.
            Why do I even bother? After all,it’s not like I can change your opinion of me. I do hope you at least listen to the ‘it’s not for everyone’ part. And the murder threatening part. Have a nice day,and hopefully the veggies keep you healthy. ^_^

    • Kim

      Most of the people talking about respect aren’t willing to give it. What’s respectful about putting a sow in a crate and letting her languish there while she pisses and shits on herself so that you can eat her offspring? Please remind me what is respectful about continuously impregnating an cow so that we can rob her of her calves and milk her to exhaustion? Attack is subjective, and words can hurt, but in my opinion, an “attack” is sending millions of male chicks through a masticator because they had the gall to inconvenience us by being born. It’s true, hypocrisy does incite rage, but acting as though it isn’t appropriate is called “gaslighting”.

      • Agnos

        One wrong thing doesn’t make another wrong thing correct!. All the things you said are wrong acts, we agree!, but it’s also wrong when vegan people don’t respect other peoples choices and start insulting them because they don’t share what they think.

        • Rhiannon Hawk

          There is a huge difference between thoughts and facts.

          • Guest

            what?….

          • Agnos

            What?…

        • Erin Colvin

          Don’t get yourself turned around. Remember what the article was about .

        • Amanda Holley

          it makes no difference or impact to agree these are wrong acts … unless we DO something about it … at the very least stop buying animals as products whilst suppressing what we know. I agree that there are vegans who dont respect others and they are inherently angry and seem to need an outlet … but these angry folks occur in all groups of people, not just vegans. So do you disrespect all the angry folks or just the vegan ones?

          • Theresa Easley

            Vegans on here are showing how closed-minded they are.

          • Amanda Holley

            The thing is, its nothing to do with their being vegan … human beings can be very closed-minded. The problem is that we apportion our experience to something like ‘being vegan’, when that simply isnt it. We meet closed-minded folks everywhere.

          • Robert Hayes

            Example?

          • MahouKame

            Right? I hate closed-minded people. Just because I might like to murder and eat human beings and you don’t, why presume to disrespect my choices as a cannibal? I mean, really… Who does it hurt anyway?

          • Allie

            Who does it hurt? The millions of starving people all over the world, do you realize that the grain that is used to feed the animals in these factories can end world hunger???

          • disqus_8Jc4KTPlti

            Allie I think he is being sarcastic!

          • MahouKame

            Ah, thanks @disqus_8Jc4KTPlti: Hard to believe someone could’ve missed that, but there ya go! ;)

          • MahouKame

            Yes. Yes I do. Do you realize how intentionally ridiculous my example was, and how it served to further that point?

          • Agnos

            I’m against of all kind of ignorant violent way of doing things!. As I’m here pointing what I don’t like from Vegans, I do the same with Hunters and other issues.

        • Robert Hayes

          Agnos, you are not thinking about what you are saying. The expanded version of your statement is: [ It is wrong when someone doesn’t respect another’s choice to deliberately inflict immeasurable psychological and physical pain on a vulnerable individual; including killing him or her. ] Are you saying I should respect people who impose horrific violence on some gentle non-human mother and her child? Why would you choose to respect a person’s choice if that choice epitomizes wickedness?

        • Agnos

          When you think you are doing things right, there will be always, and I say ALWAYS, other things you’ll be doing it wrong. I was in a reunion with some friends (not all vegans by the way), one of my vegan friends start writing using his samsung galaxy phone. A guy comes to him to tell him that his phone was made of slavery and death!. My friend was upset and an argument starts.

          The other guy was a Human Rights Activist, he told my friend that he is supporting child labor, slavery and death, because he bought that samsung phone without researching what he was buying. The guy is right, that is the truth (http://stopsamsung.wordpress.com/), but my friend was upset because he believed he was a very eco-friendly “all concerned” guy, and turns that he is not!, and also because the Human Rights Activist verbally abused my friend at some point (to be honest both).

          The point is, the Human Rights Activist, he had the right to insult my friend or not, even when he is right about his claim?. Is the same as you guys, you think you are doing a great thing not eating meat (I agree, I do the same), but that doesn’t give us the right to insult others, unless we were some kind of “angels” all-know guys that are concerned about every ethical issues out there in the world. Turns that I’m not that kind of guy, because I’m human, even when I don’t buy samsung because I was aware about their Human Rights issues, I’m sure that I’m failing at some point in another thing, and you? :).

          • Emily

            Thank you for providing your insight in a respectful way, Agnos. It’s hard to find logic in the other side when it is being yelled at you. As for your example of your vegan friend and his Samsung phone, I am curious if he still has that phone. Most vegans aren’t educated on all atrocities in the world, but when they learn about them, they certainly don’t continue to contribute to them through voluntary ignorance.

            I think that is the difference here. Meat-eaters know exactly what horror they contribute to, but they choose to do it anyway. The way phones are made is not such common knowledge. Personally, I just found out about the phone industry a year ago, and I decided to go without a smart phone because of it. Just like when I learned where all those cheap clothes come from, I decided to buy things that are ethically made.

            It’s true that the world is full of horrible injustices, but do you think that justifies doing NOTHING to make the world a better place just because you can’t do EVERYTHING?

            That being said, I don’t push my beliefs on others. Sharing knowledge is one thing. Attacking will get you nowhere. But this article is about vegans feeling attacked by the meat-eaters. Not the other way around.

          • Vivi Siow

            And then you realise that comments here Attack the meat eaters. That said,contribute to horror?So everyone who eats meat contributes to horror?
            Just because you think that,you hate them to the point of turning the did discussion back to vegans feeling attacked?
            What about the poor meat eaters your vegan friends might’ve attacked?

      • Erin Colvin

        Love it Kim! You nailed it!

      • Amanda Holley

        Very well put, thank you.

      • Vee

        Thank you. Brilliant. I get so tired of being expected to ‘respect’ people’s “personal choice” to support violence.

      • Debbie Bemister

        Very well-stated. Thank you.

      • Vivi Siow

        What’s respectful over trying to wring someone’s neck because they had a different opinion? I have actual evidence on someone personally threatening to murder someone on this comment section. Meat eaters do not all like animal abuse,just because we eat meat does not mean we like to see animals being abused. If you’re all for peace and happiness,you would stop that person who threatened MURDER!
        I give up. I’m done commenting on this section. Have a good day,and pray tell,let no murders happen.

    • Adrián

      Dude, you are doing it…
      Not all vegans are fanatics, don’t be a fanatic close minded! xD
      Check mate!

      • Agnos

        I say a lot, not all. I’m not a violent fanatic fighting with insults against the non vegan people. But just look at some facebook vegan page and read the comments, there are a lot of violent fanatics insulting others who don’t share their idea, because they don’t know how to express their ideas, they tend to start insulting others. That just makes the non vegan people think that all vegans are fanatics.

        • Amanda Holley

          But not all of them! There are more rounded folks out there who know not all vegans are fanatics …. I meet lots of them … and when i meet the ones who think we are all the ‘meat is murder’ crew , we usually have a very good conversation.

        • Robert Hayes

          “Violent fanatics”? How can an insult even be violent? And what is a fanatical vegan? Is that someone who doesn’t deliberately cause anyone harm with an abundance of zeal? Someone who is excessively mindful others? Or, someone who stridently speaks up for those who are suffering and denied a voice? Fanatical vegan sounds like a compliment to me.

          • Agnos

            Yes, I see you are. The problem is that insulting those who do not agree with you, you accomplish nothing. The insult will always be seen as the resource of the people who doesn’t have good arguments, even if the cause is great!.

    • Rhiannon Hawk

      When a person states that they think we have a choice, they are forgetting about the choices that are completely taken away from other sentient beings. This could also stem from them having a certain attitude about their own sense of identity based on superficial superiority in their ego where they “believe” that god put animals here for us. Then I would ask them why they do not eat dogs, or cats, or cougars.

      • Agnos

        There are people in China and South korea eating Dogs and Cats, because is their “culture”. I’m sorry but talking about “god” with an Agnostic like me is pointless, but taking your own words, then we vegans have to stop eating vegetables because it’s proven that they feel pain?.

        • Shiprex

          Plants feel pain. According to which religion?

          • Agnos

            Religion?, no please! :). According to Science.

          • Maria Lukic

            Plants do not have a nervous system. Plants do not scream, howl, and try to get away from you if you are hurting them.
            If animals were meant to be eaten, they would be more like plants – they would have spare body parts that would grow and drop off when they’re “ripe” like fruits and vegetables do and it wouldn’t hurt them. If you give plants a trim, cut off some branches or pick up their fruit, the plants are just going to grow them back. You cut off anything from an animal that’s it for them, you’ve crippled them for life.
            Besides, if you’re really concerned about the plants, you should be a vegan – think how many plants you’ll be saving from being eaten by over 56billion land animals meant for slaughter every year

          • Agnos

            Again search for the experiments and studies, read them complete and please don’t start denying what is obvious, just because is “not good” to our way of living or doing things. That is the same Hunters does with every research proving the importance of wolves to the eco-system, they deny it with the nonsense or with their own ideas as facts, just to keep killing wolves. We have to learn and not believing what we think just because we want or we beleive it, real knowledge before everything!.

            People don’t get the idea because are self centered and because they really believes that they have the truth, I’m tired. My point was, you, me and them, we are not special people with the power to judge others as some of you does, but I don’t care, keep doing it and I hope that when someone does the same to you, all of you accept the criticism with humility (doubt it)! :).

            Sorry I left this nonsense, I will keep eating vegetables even if every day with every new study is proved that plants feels, even when all of you want to deny it, that doesn’t matter, is SCIENCE you can’t deny it!.

            Have a good all of you!…

          • Maria Lukic

            That science you keep hinting to about plants having “feelings” had been disproved. That theory you referred to is ancient, it was brought up in 1848 by a psychologist – which in my opinion does not qualify as scientific evidence. Look up Fein, Alan (2012) “Nociceptors and the Perception of Pain” University of Connecticut: Health Center. You will find true scientific evidence there that plants. Don’t. Feel. Pain. You can’t deny science.
            Vegans have the facts straight and the majority of us have read every scientific paper there is out there on diet, nutrition, and environmental impact. A vegan lifestyle is a lot less taxing to the environment than a vegetarianand meat eating one. That’s why we are so enthusiastic about it, because it does more for people and animals than single issue campaigns ever could.

          • Aline Baldino

            Excuse me?! Is there any proven theory that plants have a nervous system, like neurons or anything resembling that? I’d really like anyone to come up with just one successful experiment in this field before they go on using this kind of statement.

          • Agnos

            Search for them please, I will not do the job for you. There are some succesful experiments proving that plants “feels”. But I guess as always happens, people will take all the information according to their interests, to support or dismiss the investigations!. I will not answer any more is enough nonsense for me, have a good day! :).

          • Shiprex

            Done the search the answer is no they don’t have a nervous system although they can react which is not a sign that they experience fear or have sentience. Animals do and have.

          • Aline Baldino

            So you just like to debate with everyone and then when anybody asks you for the foundation of your thoughts or “theories” you just run away saying you refuse to show them proof or at least reasoning of whatever nonsense you are stating?

            I could say that unicorns exist because I’ve seen plenty of pictures of them all over the internet. Bam. Your are now a firm believer of unicorns, I suppose.

            I’m sorry, but you can’t expect people to simply take your word when you are trying to debunk years and years of anatomy studies. Yes, it is the same argument meat eaters/hunters will use. Everyone expects you to make sense before they take what you’re saying for true.

          • Camille

            Plants react, but nothing shows they can feel pain. Of course they have to “feel” when their leaves are cut or being eaten or something else because otherwise they couldn’t make them grow back. The same way your immune system “feels” when you are sick or going to be sick to defeat the illness, but the immune system doesn’t feel pain.

            You know what is the purpose of feeling pain? Pain exists so sentient beings can detect danger to avoid it or escape from it. Plants can’t avoid you when you’re cutting their leaves, they can’t escape from you when you are trying to pull them out of the ground, they really can’t do anything about it. Pain would be really uselessly harmful to them if they had the ability to feel it, and it would be very illogical to think they have this ability when it is of no use for them. They can be “aware” of what is happening to them without feeling pain.

            And EVEN IF plants did feel pain, the point is that we actually need to eat plants to survive while we don’t need to exploit animals at all. Plants feeling pain could never be an excuse to make both plants AND animals suffer. “people will take all the information according to their interests” The possibility of plants being sentient is in no way against the interests of vegans as vegans seek to cause the less harm possible and veganism just happens to be the lifestyle causing the less “pain” to plants, since it takes so much more to feed the animals exploited… I am open to the possibility that plants could feel pain, but as I explained earlier it would be very illogical and no study (and yes, I have researched the subject) has ever shown that they are sentient, just that they detect things and react to them.

        • Rhiannon Hawk

          Plant do respond via receptors, but they do not have a central nervous system and can not feel pain. And in reference to my last post I am not talking about any “god” that I would “believe” in. I am just stating that the general masses who eat animal do believe that animals are here for us humans to do with as we please.

          • Agnos

            Sorry, read the studies first and look for the experiments, they are very clear. But I know people will dimiss everything that is not good to their own interests and to feel comfortable!. I will not answer anymore the nonsense, the information is free for all, look for them!. Good bye! ;)

          • Rhiannon Hawk

            Do you suggest then that people eat nothing and become breath-atarians? For more fields of grains and plants are propagated for the animal agriculture than the plants that all of humanity eats world wide. Takes twelve pounds of grain to produce one steak.

      • Amanda Holley

        But most meat eaters have separated themselves sufficiently to not worry about the sentient beings … when i discuss with meat eaters I hold the space for folks to get this for themselves… and that is a journey of awareness that everyone has the right to take. It took me years before I got it …. and if anyone headbanged me with some of these arguments it really didnt help! I simply didnt get it … now I do … and i always listen for where someone is and how willing they are to evolve…. otherwise theres no point, wasted energy. So, I avoid ‘right and wrong’ situations. Much kinder too.

    • Vlad

      As Gary Yourofsky stated, we all judge serial killers, torturers, rapists, child and spouse abusers, etc. and we neither respect or accept those people’s choices. We can respect people’s right to choose, but the choice of contributing to misery, torture and death, is not something that you could expect ethical vegans to respect. That being said, I agree that communication with non vegans should be done in a respectful manner, understanding that they are many forces that keep them from opening up their minds and hearts to the vegan message. Condemn (in your mind) not the person, but their behavior and try to get them to take first steps or even just start to consider animal suffering.

      • Shiprex

        Exactly it’s the behaviour not the person that is the problem.
        When flesh consumers learn that all it takes is a change in behaviour and not in them then they can see the truth

    • Michael McNew

      Freud’s defense mechanisms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv9ZFEnuEhA Hostility on both sides tends to validate what Freud said about people trying to protect their egos.

    • Fallen Virtue

      while you do have a point , i think that forwarding my ideals ,not making things up just to prove my point is my right ,is my right more than anyone’s right to own and kill a sentient being. Surelly i may annoy a few meat eaters at times (though it’s usually the other way around ) ,but i don’t think that earing my opinion can even be compared to the pain that people indirectly cause when they buy meat. If murdering people would be legal would you shut up? to some animals should have the same right to live than men since this planet is not ours.that being said nothing good comes from being aggressive they only make people step away

    • Denise Wilson

      No we dont and shouldnt have to accept people’s choices. That is a cop out. That is cowardly and ignorant. It is a moral issue not a choice issue. . As someone above said … ” would you accept someone’s choice to torture a puppy” …..or rape a child. No no and NO . we need to speak up loudly for those who have no voice. It is your absolute obligation and moral resposibility.

    • guest

      Exactly! If you don’t like rape, don’t rape, but respect people who choose to do so. Raping is soooooo good!

    • Vegan Rob

      Saying that we should respect people’s choices to eat animals is parallel to saying that we should have respected the Nazis for murdering innocent people because it was their (Nazis) choice to oppress others. Animals are going through a very real holocaust at this very moment. It is up to all compassionate people to speak out on behalf of our voiceless friends and loved ones.

  • Mijamoto

    I always say I’m vegan with proud. I’m proud that I had so strong mind to become vegan. If you’re saying that you’re vegan with kind of shame in your voice people think that you’re ashamed and they start thinking, that it’s a shame to be vegan, where it is exactly opposite! Give them good reason if they’re curious. There are millions unquestionable of reasons to support veganism and only one reason against – a taste of meat! Let them know, that THEY should be ashamed. They’re just too weak to make a change. Spread veganism instead of sitting in silence! Even if people are against, if you give them good reasons, show them how their food die and put a seed of thinking about it, in their heads. I converted few people already and even those, my friends, who still eat meat, respect me and even make vegan meals, when they invite me to their homes! Good luck! :)

    • Olivya

      Good on you. If vegans could be more vocal about their reasoning behind their choice without being shut down, I would have converted much sooner from vegetarianism.

    • Vivi Siow

      That’s not the only reason. But at least you’re being nice about it.
      Correction,you’re not being nice about it. What made you think that meat eaters should be ashamed of themselves just because they don’t follow your diet?

  • CDekat

    I don’t know anyone who hates vegans. I run with a crowd that includes vegans, vegetarians and carnivores, so this is all news to me and kinda makes me glad I don’t live where you do. Thank goodness this isn’t true everywhere!

    Might want to aim for mutual respect. Be the change you want to see in the world. Show the meat-eating haters how to respect a choice different from their own.

    • Amanda Holley

      Hee hee … like it. ;-) Absolutely.

  • Arev88

    This is awesome! I have trouble dealing with people with people trying to be funny or hurt me because I am a vegan. This is my second year as a vegan and I still can’t get used to people coming up with the things stated on this article. any good advise that works to deal with this people??? thanks in advance!!!

    • Alexandra C

      stop hanging out with mean people.

      • Amanda Holley

        I think as soon as we are resolved about all these arguments then the ‘mean people’ simply dont show up anymore either … I used to meet angry vegans … I now meet gorgeous ones … but i meet gorgeous others too, being vegan doesnt make someone nice!! Sadly …

    • Gavin Smart

      My advice is do not for one second change who you are or how you behave because of them. In a few years time you’ll notice some of them cutting out meat and some may even come to you for advice. The ones that don’t probably aren’t worth knowing anyway ;)

  • Larry

    This is perfect. The biggest asshole comment I get is, Don’t you realize plants have feelings too? It’s none of you damn business how I choose to eat.

  • Alexandra C

    or they could just be assholes..do you actually surround yourself with such people or are you referring to social networking? B/c i’ve been veg for 28 years and have never encountered the bacon nonsense..people may be interested or think it is weird but they don’t go out of their way to taunt me. btw don’t use “myself” non-reflexively.

  • http://www.vtvegans.org Heidi White

    I used to be one of those omnis who thought vegetarians were obnoxious
    (vegans weren’t even on my radar! vegetarians were bad enough :P). I
    had an anti-veg soap box…I gave the few veg’s I knew a hard
    time……. Looking back, I’ve often wondered how I could have made so
    much of something I understood so little about…wondered at the psychology of it all, etc. This article kind of
    helps add another piece to my theory. I hold more with Carl Jung’s
    theory of the enantiodromia which is probably not too far off from this
    Freudian theory as they were contemporaries and even colleagues for
    awhile until Jung had a hard time accepting Freud’s more reductionist
    theories and broke from him… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enantiodromia

  • Adrián

    I Think this really looks true.
    In my experiencie, when other people know that i’m a vegetarian, this things happens and i have already thought of this in the past; this just seems like a confirmation…

  • IIDON

    People hate vegans because they come off as arrogant pricks 90% of the time. I live ina town with a lot and maybe a handful are tolerable to be around. They are like the Glenn beck of food.

    • Agnos

      That is what I’m talking about, even If I’m vegan, I don’t like the most of the vegan people I have met. They are always judging others like some kind of superior people, full of moral, knowledge, ethics and integrity, like religious fanatics!.

      • Camille

        Vegans are not doing that for their ego, or else they wouldn’t do it as it brings them so much hate (it’s way easier on your ego to be a meat-eater, as you have 95% of the population defending your lifestyle and agreeing with you). They are doing it for the animals who cannot speak for themselves. And if there weren’t people to speak for those animals, the people who would realize by themselves that the animal exploitation they’ve been participating in their whole life is wrong would be way too rare for any change to happen. I would have never gone vegetarian if no one ever exposed the reality of the meat industry to “respect people’s choices” and I would have never gone vegan if Gary Yourofsky just went vegan without ever confronting anyone about animal cruelty to again “respect people’s choices”

        • Antonio Tejada

          Of course they’re doing it for their ego — indirectly, by supporting a cause.

    • Erin Colvin

      Maybe they come off that way to you because your view is being distorted by that huge chip on your shoulder that you’re trying to see around. Just sayin’ :-/

      • IIDON

        I have some that are good friends but as i said the general population come of as i am better than you types. When acts like they are above someone because of religions races or what ever food they eat they become “pricks”. being able to say i do something but not judging others because of what they do is a far better way of life.

        • Shiprex

          That’s your subconscious reacting just as it said in the article. Well done you’re on the road to veganism. All you need to realise is the behaviour is what needs to change and not the person

        • Maria Lukic

          Everyone judges, don’t act like vegans are the only ones. By calling vegans pricks you are judging them.
          Everytime you meet someone you are judging how they look, walk, talk; everyone does that. It’s part of who we are as a species. You are just upset because those “arrogant pricks” had the nerve to judge you face to face instead of pretending and lying to your face then judging you nastily behind your back.

        • Camille

          Vegans are judgemental… right. As if meat-eaters weren’t judgemental themselves by judging that animals don’t matter and should be exploited and killed for their palate pleasure.

  • http://qwertyvsdvorak.com/ Monica Friedman

    Having been, at various times in my life, strictly kosher, strictly vegetarian, and strictly paleolithic, I can say from experience that people will act stupid about any dietary decision that differs from their own, because food is generally a great commonality and thing that brings us together, and adopting a specialized diet sets you apart.

  • Veronica Uhlig

    I’ve been dealing with this for 24 years and my boyfriend was a meat eater when we met I never ever tried to make him change or pushed my beliefs on him but I also never cooked meat for him. 4 years later he is now a vegan and so are some of my friends and it’s not because I pushed them or forced my views they CHOSE a vegan lifestyle because they are compassionate. I love all my friends and family because they accept me and they all really try to adopt a less violent life. I feed, educate and show my friends and family that being vegan is o k, hard sometimes, but worth it. I show respect and I get respect back from them. They may not all be vegan but at least they don’t criticize vegans and I would like to think it’s because they actually know one.

    • Amanda Holley

      Great, well done. Perfect.

    • Vivi Siow

      Never cooked meat for him?
      …….
      Maybe that’s why he turned vegan?
      But if you really didn’t,good on you.

  • Jami

    Despite the general awesome-ness of this article, I’d just like to point out that the line about bacon being “sliced off of filthy animals that wallow in their shit all day” is annoyingly false. Pigs actually avoid messing in the same areas in which they eat and sleep, which makes them rather clean by many animal standards… they roll in mud to keep cool because they have no sweat glands. It bothers me to witness a self-proclaimed animal-loving vegan using such a justification for not eating an animal.

    • Jocelyn Panko

      But pigs in factory farms dont get to do the things they naturally do. They have no room, they are packed in like sardines, and because of this live in their filth. When they are murdered the “meat” is exposed to blood shit and filth. I agree with your sentiment though. Its disrespect to talk about the pigs like that. Calling them filthy is like calling people in concentration camps filthy. They are a product of their wretched environment. Like you said, they don’t like being in shit. So its even worse knowing that these poor animals are so uncomfortable in every way.

      • Jami

        Exactly, you’re right in saying it’s like calling people in concentration camps filthy. it just felt a little annoying to me the way it was said and the way that it was used as a justification, almost as if the ‘filthiness’ of the animals from their environment is a needed justification for not eating them. Looking at it from that perspective, I find it gross enough to think of eating the fat, muscle, blood, etc. that makes up ‘meat’, regardless of my moral stance.

        • fenikkusu

          This is likely going to be the oddest post ever. First I’m not a vegan. But I am intelligent and I am open to hearing other views which is why I’m here. I DO believe in a healthy ecosystem and I see the obvious issues with so many things… the annihilation of rain forests for more grazing land, the methane emissions of cows, and even our governments current war on snakes because of the issues in the Everglades, which has led to a pan-demonization of snakes by the public (Trust me you don’t want to see the epidemics and pandemics that will sweep the globe when we finally destroy the last snake because they are the best defense against wild rodents that carry things like plague and hemorrhagic fevers!) Yes it needs to all work together! I have decided to cut back on meat for reasons having to do with the destruction of the earth at our hands. I will NOT give up meat however. As a woman I find it is critical to my health when I have my period and if I don’t eat red meat I drop into anemia. Perhaps there should be a consideration for women who experience heavy bleeding as a matter of course. And you can ask but yes I’ve tried Iron supplements that constipate me while I’m having cramps that’s lovely and there’s also things like spinach to incorporate and I do, I crave both steak and spinach at such times. It is what it is and that craving is telling me I need something… iron! But the reason why I’m actually answering this has to do with the pig issue. I actually like the flavor of bacon though we don’t have it often as its fat content is an issue but my personal experience has been that pigs truly are disgusting and dirty animals. My husband is a horse shoer and for many years he visited a small FAMILY (NOT FACTORY) farm. He didn’t go near the pigs but I always knew when he had visited that farm because the odor of absolute refuse, like the sort of smell you get at the local town dump seeped into his clothes! They kept a pair of pigs to breed every year and typically there were perhaps ten piglets that were very cute. I went once thinking that indeed these people must have kept them poorly. That was not the case. although there was no grass in their pen there was plenty of dry ground away from the feeding trough. But the pigs clearly didn’t want that. They went from the feeding trough with the slop dripping out of their mouths onto the mud to ROLLING in it!!! Slop is nearly a biohazard in and of itself… it is intentionally made old food (and I didn’t realize this until I read it at farm forums) It is literally any old food from the house plus some grains soaked in water until bacteria form and begin to take over! AND IT REEKS!!!! and this thing about pigs being smart…. I want to see the references on this. Its something people always say, but in reality pigs are one of the few animals that kill their young through carelessness. In fact its such an extreme issue with pigs that if you are going to breed them you have to have a specific sort of contraption that is supposed to help keep the mother from killing the piglets! Otherwise if you can reasonably be a vegan it is helpful to the planet. This is a demand sort of thing. If there is less call for meat fewer animals will be slaughtered because of feeding costs for the farmers. And that part works pretty well… farmers are always stressed financially, they aren’t the ones who are making the big bucks in this.. its all the nasty middle men. So I feel its something that we all actually CAN affect in positive ways. As for me for now, perhaps when I reach menopause I will be able to go vegetarian or vegan and be functional when I’m past the buckets of bleeding every month. Really and honestly there are times that being a woman just sucks balls. We are required by the world to be functional in our jobs etc. even though some of us are hard pressed to be able to do so! I mean there really isn’t any taking 5 days off every month because we’re basically bleeding out is there? I could totally work within such a scenario and be able to make choices that go along with my mindset. So for all you who are vegan or vegetarian, maybe there’s a place here to say thanks…
          but really pigs are gross!!! And I love animals and the piglets are adorable so if I didn’t really think they were gross I wouldn’t bother to say it. visit a local farmer who raises pigs get out of the car and breathe deeply! spend an hour looking at the cute pigs… but when you get home I recommend washing your clothes separately!!!

          • Sarah

            Hi. I am vegan and I want to tell you that if you really want a vegan solution to the menstrual “anemia” problem, try taking 1-2 oz of fresh wheat grass a day. Google the benefits and it isn’t too bad tasting. I am ignoring the rest of your post because it is nonsense but I hope that the wheat grass helps you

          • Joseph E Fasciani

            Sheez, what do we have here, a parade of saints & sinners in the meat department?

            Look, I’ve raised thousands of animals under conditions FAR superior to ‘Nature’ –what little is left of it– and I was a vegan for three years, and it was good for me. The best vegetarian food I’ve eaten in my life was prepared for me by Sikhs for whom I was working one Summer, and if all vegetarian cooking were that good we’d all be vegans, OK?

            I’ve been in horticulture for 52 yrs & have a plant registered at the Canadian Ornamental Plant Foundation in Ottawa, so I know genetics and GMOs and so on.

            We are all going to die, from a single celled organism to a blue whale. HOW we die is never known beforehand: the roll of the cosmic dice on that final play is always unknown, although we prefer some outcomes over others. Animals confined to be eaten have no choice whatsoever.

            For most humans of conscience, it’s easier to eat a clam than a cow, but the fact remains: s/he died that you could live. But even that fact does not take into account our attitude about this action, and it is this arena that offers our best chance for resolution of moral conflict.

            I am a member of the Religious Society of Friends, commonly known as Quakers, and it was amongst them that I met my first vegetarians about 45 years ago. At the time, in St Petersburg, Florida, I was surprised at how varied and good the food was!

            IF we consume other sentient beings w/some degree of spiritual involvement and moral awareness of our actions, then that is I think the most we can expect from homo saps. Of course more religious awareness could mean more vegetarianism, but even that is not a guaranteed outcome.

          • fenikkusu

            Joe you always have the best answers no matter what! a better complete word view sort of answer and it always makes me pause and think. … I didn’t know Quakers were vegetarians… have to admit here though celibacy is not going to work for me…lol. Um … yeah honestly I’d rather give up eating altogether than miss on that bliss…lol.

          • Joseph E Fasciani

            Sorry if I gave this wrong idea, as most Quakers probably eat meat, albeit likely less than the average in the nations where they live. That was simply the first time, and we have a few in my Meeting for Worship here near Elk Lake, BC.

            And let me confess now: I LOVE a dose of meat from time to time, but usually Chinese style, as one ingredient of several. Mind you, I rarely turn down a good rare steak!

          • fenikkusu

            LOLOLOL I was talking about the celibacy Joe…lololol
            it’s good to hear from you btw!

          • fenikkusu

            Thank you Sarah.
            I will look into the wheat grass!

          • Breda Bree

            chlorella is even better and increasing carbs with butternut squash , yams etc and taking b6

          • Breda Bree

            you should learn the truth about nutrition, you would thrive.. especially when it comes to periods

          • Nathan Casey

            You become anemic because you’re not eating red meat? We’re you getting your b12 from another source? And also your iron? You don’t need red meat and it does more harm than good. Trust me there’s lots of vegan women doing just fine eating a plant based diet who are definitely not anemic.

    • Allie

      Hahaha! You have no idea what you are talking about! Try watching a documentary about factory farming and how HUMANS KEEP the animals, not only pigs. They rub agaiansdt each other all day ebcause they are stuffed into areas inside which they can’t even turn around! You really need to broaden your education dear friend.

      • Christine

        Bitch ^ they were not talking about other animals, only pigs specifically.

    • barbara horton

      I agree jamie,only reason that statement mite be true IA because that’s all the pigs are offered for their living conditions.author of article guess trying to make a point but using derogatory sentences is also unacceptable to me.

    • http://slipmaskin.deviantart.com/ Slipmaskin

      Yes, they don’t naturally want to be dirty, but they don’t exactly get to choose when they are cramped together in a cage on concrete floor in a slaughterhouse.

  • Alina Lewicka-Strzok

    Hate? I’ve never experienced it. They are curious, sometimes they justify their habits. Sometimes discuss the health issues. Maybe the people I meet are from another planet but since I’ m vegan (sometimes vegetarian becsuse of certsin conditions) I ‘ ve never heard any unfriendly remarks.

  • Meow

    If some vegan is preaching at me for my eating habits, I have the right to say whatever I want. So, to each their own? please?

  • Walter Neff

    “There’s this silly stereotype of the hostile, preachy vegan. I have never met one in my life.” – you write for Vegan Chowhound. Preachy writing, no less. You’re exactly what they are talking about when they stereotype.

    Could be worse, tho. I wouldn’t worry about it too much.

  • manctofu

    I avoid mentioning it as much as possible. I just can’t be bothered with the hassle. If it ever comes up accidentally, I ALWAYS have to sit through endless, tedious lectures full of the same tired, clichéd arguments. If you’re a meat eater, please try to realise that I’ve heard it all before. There is nothing you can say that will be new to me. I’m not perfect, I just don’t want to cause animals to suffer – a concept that really should not be hard to grasp. I just want to be left alone in my choice like I leave everyone else alone in theirs.

  • http://spresserking.tumblr.com/ storm

    no surprises that conservatives avoid products which aren’t as harmful for the environment, just so they don’t feel like a ‘radical left wing hippie’. fucking pricks

  • rebecca lachance

    I dont understand why people who call vegans closed minded think that may shame us, I am certainly not ashamed to be vegan, I KNOW that suffering and murder is wrong and I will of course not change my mind.

    • Vivi Siow

      Because you all push your beliefs onto the meat eaters and shame them for eating meat.

  • Kevin Stanley

    The movie, Scott pilgrim categorizes the prejudice against vegans

  • オルソヌ ジェイ

    So if I call one of my vegan friends a fag, I’m really in a defensive posiiton..?

  • Michael McNew

    This goes into Freud’s defense mechanisms in an easy-to-understand manner and compliments the article: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv9ZFEnuEhA

  • Grrrrs

    I get always the same comments…”I hate vegans” – ” good on you, but I just simply love food too much!” – yhea, right.

    I have one concern about the “who´s business it is what I eat”…..well, in the end everyone has to decided themselves…and I´m not a pusher. But I just want to know, what would happen, if your neighbour would beat a puppy dog in his/her garden to death….would you just stand there and think: “well, it´s his/her business what he/she does with his/her dog” and would go inside and shut the door…or would you interact and tell your neigbour to stop beating that poor creature to death?

    And what about your steak? Sorry, that sometimes I just can´t sit there and watch you.

    • Vivi Siow

      Yes,then just go somewhere where you won’t see people eating meat. I’m pretty sure people only hate on them since they condescend on people who don’t follow what they eat. The business thing only applies to ourselves,and not the poor puppy. Why?Because the puppy didn’t make the choice in getting beaten up,and we get the choice in what we eat. Just like how you choose what you eat,and what I choose to eat.
      IT just irks me that you lot yell insults to the meat eaters,and then when they yell you back,you guys play the victim. The same goes to the meat eaters,mind you. But when is this going to stop?You hate me,i hate you,this would never end.

  • Paul

    These days there are many vegan adults who were born in to vegan families and have
    vegan children of their own. But the majority of us once ate animals. I try to remember this fact when speaking with argumentative or bullying people who still eat animal bodies and secretions.
    Although I resisted for years, I was able to become aware that killing and eating other creatures is cruel and unnecessary. And I have proven first-hand that other hard core meat-eaters are capable of admitting this truth too.
    I loved the taste and texture of meat and dairy – but I couldn’t keep killing animals or contributing to their suffering once I stopped trying to justify it. I realised there is no
    justification for taste-bud entertainment at the expense of innocent lives.
    Most people come to this conclusion through association with us – especially if we are good company, good friends and good examples for our awakening contacts.

  • Zenster

    I do not have a problem because I simply state that while I do not want to harm any animals I would not have a problem with beating the living shit out of you – and as a result, no one bothers me

  • HereHere

    There is a lot of ignorance out there, though. Meat eaters claim that we can’t get enough protein or that we have to combine amino acids at every meal in order to be healthy. When I look around, the ones with the most obesity, cardiovascular and diabetic problems are those who eat the most meat. You can practically predict who is going to rush in to the ER by the shape of their bodies and panting at doing very simple tasks, like putting on or taking off shoes. Not that there aren’t obese vegans, but vegans do have better health outcomes throughout life in terms of chronic disease.

    I guess my frustration is the fact that the meat eater is often very, very condescending (we evolved to eat meat, it’s natural, god gave dominion over the animals as if without responsibility to protect them…). I understand the claims about not being able to live without cheese (although the artisan cheeses these days are coming of age – pun intended). Our whole world is based on consuming animal products – you really see it when you watch TV ads or look in a grocery store flyer.

  • Lauren Snell

    What drives me insane about vegans in the US is the white privelage that comes with the territory. Personally, every time a self-righteous vegan proselytizes about the superiority of their lifestyle, I can only think they are spoiled rotten, rich, white kids bored with normative conventions. My opinions on vegans are heavily shaped on my past and current position in life. I am in my late twenties and I live (PDX) and every vegan I come accross is unemployed or underemployed by choice and lives off of mom and dad. It must be nice to be able to put your organic produce on mom’s Amex! For me, it seems like a lot of these vegans haven’t experienced REAL hunger— the type of hunger one experiences when they are poor. I find no moral high ground with the vegan argument but see it more as a status symbol. It’s saying, “I am privileged enough to deem animal products as food unfit for consumption. ” Meanwhile, nearly 50 million Americans struggle with hunger and food insecurity and vegans are complaining that omnivores make fun of them.

    • Jim Norton

      lauren, you are sterotyping (which is lazy). i doubt you have met every vegan, go to a vegan meetup and you’ll meet plenty of highly productive people who are vegans. avoiding harm to others is a moral baseline.

  • KeyLimePi

    I would love to share your article (which I love) but I have a thing about the 2% stat on the number of vegans in the US; it’s actually more like 7%, having grown a lot in the last 5 years or so. Public Polling Policy’s survey from 2012 put us at 7%, and that company was found to be more reliable than the Gallup Poll (which has an unimpressive accuracy record). Here’s PPP’s survey, you can search the word vegan in there for the stats, just Google:
    Food issues polarizing America – Public Polling Policy

    Or, if you have a better up-to-date source for your 2%, please share. Thanks for your great article.

  • http://elmonero.com Arturo Torres

    Simply amazing!

  • Kylie Moore

    Not a huge fan of Freud, but I like the article because it definitely makes a good point about how the meat eaters tend to be the pushy ones. I originally became vegan at 13 but was guilt tripped and treated like shit by my family because of it. I am an adult now and have recently returned to veganism. I have known vegetarians and they not once made me feel like shit for eating meat. Sometimes I would feel crappy when I ate meat around them but that was because I knew I was doing something that did not align with the moral person I wanted to be and not because they were the ones who made me feel bad.

    I hate it because they (the pushy meat eaters) think they are so funny or intelligent too. They aren’t.

  • Ann

    Brilliant.

  • Elle Emeno

    I love you for writing this. Thank you so much for figuring out what I have felt since I went vegan.

  • Luis

    Hi. This was a nice article. Well, i was vegan for several years, but due to health reasons i now eat honey (from my own bees) and yoghurt. But i have to say that latelly being vegan is kind of a “trend” here in Deutschland. And many of this “new vegans” actually do preach it all the time, and talk to other people like if they know everything. I try to stay out of the discussion. I had enough of it in my day… ;) But i think the most important is to show respect for other people’s choices. Instead of telling them how bad it is to eat meat and how badly treated animals are, i think it would be better to tell how healthy a vegan diet is, invite the people to eat at your place something cooked by you (or even cook together). Instead of trying to give a bad opinion about meat-eating (because people will get defensive), just try to give a positive one about vegan diet.

    Oh, and please don’t do like a friend of mine who is one of this “new vegans”, who ordered the “Italian Meat Breakfast” saying “oh, it’s ok, on weekends i still eat meat!”.

    ;)

  • Tames Moterani

    I’d add that, besides causing hatred against vegans, the same mechanism is what, in many cases, makes it difficult for people to make a change (if they deny something, they can’t think about it). it happens in discussions between vegetarians and meat eaters, as well as between vegetarians and vegans. Whenever I enter a discussion of the later type, vegetarians accuse me of being heretical, they give excuses as for why they are not vegan that make no sense at all. People just go completely irrational on these debates, very often.

  • RW_M

    * distroying = destroying

  • Gallifreyan Refugee

    his isnt why people dislike vegans… none of this.

    First before we get too far I eat meat. Now I try to get organic as much as possible but cant always do so due to cost. And really we can only do the best we can with what we have.

    My diet gets me automatically hated by most vegans… doesnt matter if I bought organic meat or factory farmed or if I took care of and killed my own cow… no matter how well I took care of that cow. Because an animal died! Why is it ok for other animals to kill and eat other animals but for some reason its not for humans? We are animals and we are part of nature.

    I find not just hate for people who eat meat but vegans hate other vegans if that vegan isnt completly following the vegan life style! If a person is transitioning into being vegan lets say their diet is vegan but they have a leather belt… tgey will be hated they will reseave death threats… despite having that belt before and just not getting rid of it. Not a perfect vegan? Then you will be hated. They tend to also hate people who say for health reasons I cant be a vegan… boy do vegans hate that. But worse then that are people who stopped being vegan because it made them ill. Other vegans will bash this person, give death threats, and call this person a liar! Really this mentality is quite poor taste and a turn off.

    Louis C.K. made me laugh there… but I can answer this for you… there are a few factors to concider. One is culture… where you live dictates what you eat example bugs. The second is lvl of cuteness we want cute things for pets we eat the less cute. Example kitten vs cow. Third would be lvl of intelligence… we value intelligence in both other people and animals. Example a dolphin is way more intelligent than a tuna. Another thing to concider is what was the animal domesticated for? Dogs for hunting and cows to feed us.

    I have no doubt you suffer some stupid responses to your lifestyle. But dont be so quick to judge! People who eat meat suffer some highly stupid things as well! Yes its true.

    An example of this would be claiming that humans are not omnivores. Its fine to eat what you want… its reaching l vls of ridiculousness to claim we were never ment to be omnivores! I almost feel these vegans never went to school and dont know how to reasearch things properly… or maybe they were picking apples and fell and bumped their head. Whatever the cause its again a turn off to be told your bot supposed to eat meat. And is really a divorce from reality!

    As for ancestors… why wouldnt you look at them? We evolved from them… we evolved consuming both meat and plants. People might be using this because well its actually logical for what is natural… what we evolved to consume. This is a good argument for vegans who claim meat is not a natural part of our diet… but supplements are… and fruit/veggies shipped and flown from all over are defiantly natural? Its fine if you want to be vegan… fine and good. But to make claims listed above well….

    Can you live on a plant based diet you say? Maybe is the answer… some can. .. some cant. Another reason you might not be well liked is this line of view that literally every human (if they can afford it as a luxury ) can live on plants! Why do Vegas think their diet is so copy and past? Even an omnivore diet isnt copy and past. people can have allergies, illnesses, money, not being able to absorb nutrients from supplements! Tge list could probably go on! Your diet isnt for everyone… get over it.

    People wanting to fight you because your vegan? That’s absolutely laughably ridiculous! The people that did that also must be retarded.

    I agree animals can feel pain! We are more intelligent and in obtaining our meat I believe the no pain method is best. Why make an animal suffer? There is no point to a slow agonizing death. But there is a reason for the animal to die and that is to feed us. I know you dont agree on you plant based vegan lifestyle. But since I know im an omnivore and do best on a diet of both I have to disagree with you… but I dont hate you or get angry at your choice in food.

    I think what might turn most people off is the vegan attitude. The fact that many use scar tactics, false or manipulated information, and even bully people. Yes I have seen this all over. Also the fact that vegans almost seem like a cult… that can be a little off putting to say the least.

    I must point out that not all vegans are like this. There are kinder more understanding vegans who dont try to shove it in your face… generally good people… I applaud them.

  • Beth Aaron

    Last evening before recording, as I’ve done for years, the local school board meeting, I asked the principal of Kennett High School, attended by many sending town students, about doing something for US VEG WEEK at the school. He promptly replied that it was national hamburger month.. Then his colleagues had a chuckle, one, the principal of Kennett Middle school , the other the head of career tech… I felt bullied.

  • Della Jo Wilson Piarulli

    I am a proud Vegan. :)

  • dairy is rape

    damn, NO MORE psychology terms? :( i was enjoying. btw, mentioning factory farms is totally doing no service at all….to the animals. perpetuating some humane myth. thank you.

  • Martine Atherton

    You haven’t met a preachy vegan? I find that hard to believe. Every article vaguely hinting of the environment or health or animal welfare or the latest recipe will bring them out. They will pop up on articles that have absolutely no bearing on their favorite topic. They use very manipulative, emotion laden words in their onslaught and will not listen to any other point of view.
    I call them the evangelical vegans as opposed to the many wonderful folk I know who have made their personal choices simply their personal choice for whatever reason.
    I have had discussions with fundamentalist Muslims and young earth creationists but it is only from the evangelical vegans do I receive vile hate mail.

    • Amanda Kenneally

      Funny. One of the closest people to me is an ARA and a photographer. It is so frequent that she doesn’t bother to tell me anymore how often she receives rape and death threat from AnAg farmers!

  • fenikkusu

    To the author Mike Lee.
    This is a win!
    look at all these comments!
    The brilliant thing here is that people are stopping, discussing, sharing their views, debating the efficacy and profound meaning. They are waxing philosophical about all of this and yes they are challenging.
    We only grow when we are challenged. We only learn we are challenged.
    You’ve done that!
    From that standpoint alone this is a brilliant article!

  • Steve Bakewell

    “People are fundamentally good”
    There’s no such thing as “fundamentally good” human..

    “Think about how awful an average factory farm is.”
    Not any worse than this :-
    http://i.ytimg.com/vi/5_TnqoKjXg8/hqdefault.jpg

    “Imagine the thought of killing an animal and it’s screams of agony.”
    We pretty much were meat eaters before we started growing plants,so its not in my “nature” to empathize with animals that have been programmed as “FOOD” in my brain by millions of years of evolution..

    The only animals that we humans can empathize with are domesticated like horses&dogs and even then we eat them in some cultures.

    So i’m sorry I DO NOT feel sorry for the animals who die and i do not think anything is WRONG with killing animals either.. its a part of NATURE if you can’t accept it perhaps YOU’RE the one who’s in denial!

    You know why people hate Vegans? because they’re Elitists and moral police.. they claim that they’re better than others and they shame meat-eaters and even vegetarians which RIGHTFULLY pisses them off.

    “Rationalization: Avoiding a hard truth”
    Presenting biological FACTS is not rationalization!

    “Can humans be healthy and survive on a vegan diet. Yes”

    Can an entire country survive on a vegan diet? NO!
    Can all 7 BILLION humans on earth survive on a Vegan diet? HELL NO!

    “Factory farms don’t contribute to the poisoning of the earth”
    Actually they aren’t really any more polluting the earth then industrial farming is.

    BTW louis C.K’s video was IGNORANT! Dolphin are one of the most intelligent animals on earth after Humans.. yes there is a BIG difference between a dumb fish and a dolphin which can form bond with Humans!

    Perhaps what i HATE most about you vegans is that because of you pricks we vegetarians are also met with the same stigma!

    “People, with their half baked philosophical arguments, can become condescending and hostile.”
    The IRONY IS STAGGERING.

    “I have had people argue that animals are not sentient beings. That they can’t feel pain.”
    But some animals really DON’T feel pain.. like lobsters&frogs for ex.

    “Meat does not contain all sorts of growth hormones and antibiotics.”
    And Vegetables don’t contain all sorts of pesticides&fertilizers? LOLZ

  • James Thorpe

    People hate vegans for the same reason they hate Mormons – they go around telling other people what to think. They shove their own beliefs down other peoples throats. That´s why people hate vegans.

    I think it´s great that people are vegans, especially when they actively promote environmentally friendly behaviour and sustainability. Leading by example is a strong, healthy, morally responsible way to live your life.

  • Douglas Jack

    Wonderful article describes the defence mechanisms & false accusations which vegans face daily in society today. I’m vegetarian 43 years, vegan 27 years & 80% raw 16 years. However I learned culturally from living among 50,000 Dukobour & other pacifist vegetarians. Learning was a process of being invited for dinner, to help in the orchard & gardens, making friends. The cultural component of welcoming community-economy is essential if we want the whole world to rediscover its veggie ‘indigenous’ (Latin ‘self-generating’) heritage as stewards of the worldwide Polyculture Orchard. https://sites.google.com/site/indigenecommunity/design/1-indigenous-welcome-orchard-food-production-efficiencies

    All humanity’s indigenous ancestors lived in multihome dwelling (Longhouse/apartment, Pueblo/townhouse & Kanata/village) complexes with privacy but as well where culture of female-male intergenerational collaboration thrives. https://sites.google.com/site/indigenecommunity/relational-economy/extending-our-welcome-participatory-multi-home-cohousing

    Its time to go back to the future.

  • Chris

    Just reading this article, the disparaging remarks, the sense of superiority, as well as the incredibly arrogant comments will explain why people hate Vegans. People hate vegans because they write articles like this. They pretend that they are morally superior because they have chosen a specific diet, and never pass an opportunity to criticize anyone who hasn’t agreed to deny nature and pretend that other animals aren’t food. You have never met one of these Vegans? look in the mirror and introduce yourself.

    • Maria Fonseca

      Animals are not food. You have been taught to believe this through conditioning.The superiority and arrogance that you are attributing to vegans, are what you are displaying with your comment. We have chosen the diet not to feel morally superior but for the fact that we see that the animals are capable of suffering just like a human would. When you see an animal hopelessly fighting and screaming for his life and see yourself in him, it`s called compassion and wanting the suffering to stop. You are the one who denies this reality by burying your head in the sand and pretending that your species is the only one worthy of living life in peace , free from harm and exploitation.

      • Antonio Tejada

        And you’re proving the point: you consider your moral judgment to be superior to ours.

        Vegans just can’t wrap their heads around the fact that many meat eaters *do* know where their meat comes from, and *are totally OK with it*. I know I am. Yes, I’ve dispatched an animal. Yes, I’ve slaughtered one before. Yes, I would do it again. It’s not something I necessarily *enjoy*, and I make sure to reduce the suffering to an absolute minimum. But it doesn’t inherently bother me that an animal had to die for me to eat.

        Am I in favor of factory farms? Absolutely not, and I choose meat from happier animals whenever possible. (It helps living in a country with extremely strict animal welfare laws.)

  • Stu Berkowitz

    You made some very good points in your blog post/rant. However, please don’t publish a piece with so many grammatical, spelling and punctuation errors; you lose a good percentage of your audience, and your credibility comes into question, which is a real shame when you have something important and valid to say.

    To wit:

    “…and it’s (sic) screams of agony.” This
    is a contraction of “it is”. “Its” is the third person singular possessive
    pronoun you should have used.

    “…and distroying (sic) the planet.” “Destroying” is how that word is
    spelled.

    “…sacrifice that vegan’s (sic) strive for.” “Vegans” is plural. “Vegan’s” is
    indicating possession.

    “We all hide, some just do it behind burnt pig flesh.” Use a semi-colon after
    hide, not a comma.

    “,,,actual baby calfs (sic) are…” The
    plural of calf is “calves”, not “calfs (sic)”!

    “That’s the reaction formation at work; And so
    is the fetishizing of bacon.” If you’re going to use a semi-colon
    after the word “work”, then don’t use the word “And” (and you don’t capitalize
    a word after a semi-colon unless it’s a proper noun). If you want to use “and” where
    you did, place a comma before it, and don’t capitalize it!

    “They
    shouldn’t of (sic) had kids…” You meant “shouldn’t’ve”, as in
    “shouldn’t have”, not “of”. Besides, you can’t use a “double contraction” (no
    such thing – bad form, and grammatically incorrect)! So, you need to use “…shouldn’t
    have…”.

    “…the bible (sic) and god (sic)…” “Bible”
    and “God” are proper nouns – capitalize them!

  • ladonichais

    If part of the school curriculum involved showing children the truth of where their food comes from i.e not from the local supermarket but a slaughter house, there would be very few meat eaters. Meat comes in neat little pieces its not an animal. If you live in a city you don’t even see the lorries carrying these poor creatures. I gave up meat when I moved to the country and witnessed the animals on the way to slaughter. meat eaters will never ask why you are a vegie or vegan during a meal where meat is served because telling them what happens to animals puts them off their food and its your fault.

  • Chester Thomas

    How do you know if someone is a vegan? Don’t worry, they will tell you….repeatedly. actually they will try to shove it down your throat, probably insult you and go on rants about animal suffering, global warming, methane emissions, meat is disgusting and blah blah blah. If your a vegan, good on you. But when it comes to MY food mind your own damn business, especially if your not paying my food bill.

  • mr.redmeatboiiiiiiiiiii8887249

    people hate a lot of vegans because a lot of vegans are twats

  • Kjersti Nyhagen

    It must be very satisfying to convince yourself that people feel threatened by your diet, and that that must be the reason they are rude to you. Fact of the matter is that I’ve never met a single fucking vegan who wasn’t preachy about it, and who holds extreme views like comparing meat-eating with murder and who thinks that people are hypocritical if they love their pet and oppose animal abuse, but still eat meat. Most vegans, with very few exceptions, are rude, aggressive people who think themselves morally superior and who can’t stop preaching even if their life depended on it. And that is why the world will never stop hating vegans. Oh, but I guess that’s just a defensive strategy, because we feel so threatened. Poor, scared meat eaters are so scared, because the vegan is telling us that we are immoral for eating meat :((( NO, you whore! You are annoying and therefore people are rude to you. Get it through your thick skull!

  • Simon

    Thanks! This was so nice to read, I live in norway and I am also a vegan. Norway is really small and have a horrible meat culture, and lately I lost confidence because of it. Im so happy after reading this, there really are people like me in the world :) Fuck people living in denial! As Ghandi said: Be the change you want to see in the world!ï

  • Steve Bakewell

    @rebecca_mooney:disqus @csarhumbertocruzgarca:disqus @trc7eastnytheory:disqus @raytiberiusadler:disqus @disqus_M2YJ5G9FQO:disqus @vsresident:disqus
    DOES ANYONE OF YOU VEGAN “STALWARTS” HAVE THE BALLS TO actually respond to my ACTUAL arguments about Industrial agriculture and its destruction of nature&animals? instead of just leaving snide&immature remarks like a 12 yr olds?

  • Morgan Alexis Bailey

    Lots of good points. Thanks for writing this.

  • Laura Hicks

    I never sign in to a site to leave a comment, but this article was hysterical. I have just decided that I just really don’t want to eat meat anymore, (sorry can’t part with cheese) but I was really curious as to why other people are so Damn resistant to ME not eating meat and what was said here was pretty much spot on to what I was thinking..bottom line is it makes them feel bad about themselves. More power to the true vegans…I’m not there yet.

  • jen
  • A. Riggle

    Great article. I agree with everything you wrote except that pigs are “filthy animals that wallow in their shit all day.” I’d sooner sleep next to a pig than some slobby human hog burping up his bacon cheeseburger in my face all night.

  • http://artforasustainableworld.weebly.com/ Michael Rbe Green

    P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; }

    “In 1917 Woodrow Wilson formed the
    Committee on Public Information, also known as the CPI. It was a
    propaganda agency and it’s purpose was to build support for the war
    with the American people. The CPI, run by a man named George Creel
    was known for its crude tactics, blatant exaggerations and outright
    lies. However one member of the CPI, Edward Bernays, had a much more
    subtle approach. Rather than resorting to low brow tactics Bernays
    studied the mindset of the American people, then based on his
    observations he created a campaign to promote the idea that America’s
    purpose in the war was to “make the world safe for democracy”.
    This meme was wildly successful, so much so that continues to be used
    even to this day.

    Edward Bernays was Sigmund Freud’s
    nephew, and like his uncle he was avid student of human psychology.
    Some documentarians such as Adam Curtis in his film “The Century
    of the Self” have mistakenly assumed that the psychological
    techniques that Bernays went on to develop were merely the practical
    application of Freud’s theories. However, though Freud had a
    significant influence on his nephew, the reality of the matter is
    that he was not the source of these ideas.
    Sigmund Freud, Edward
    Bernays and Walter Lippmann all subscribed to a school of thought
    that was first put forth in 1895 by a French social psychologist
    named Gustave Le Bon. Le Bon wrote several books, the famous of which
    was entitled “Psychologie des Foules”. It was translated into
    English as “The Crowd: A Study of the Popular Mind”.
    “The
    Crowd” was a revolutionary piece of work. In it Le Bon not only
    presented an in depth description of group psychology and how it
    differed from individual psychology but he also outlined a very
    simple set of principles that enable leaders to spark ideological
    contagion and thereby rise to power.

    Hitler, Goebbels, and Mussolini all
    studied Le Bon’s writings and applied his techniques to the letter.
    The results they attained were precisely those that Le Bon claimed
    that they would have. Funny how they leave that little detail out of
    most history books don’t you think?
    Sigmund Freud’s book “Group
    Psychology and the Analysis of the Ego” was in fact a direct
    critique of the writings of Gustave Le Bon and William McDougall
    which focused on the relationship between individual psychology and
    group psychology, and explained how human groups can be controlled
    for long periods of time through the manipulation of group identity,
    belief systems and social structures.

    Edward Bernays studied Freud, Le Bon,
    Wilfred Trotter, Walter Lippmann and many others. He then combined
    their perspectives and synthesized them into an applied science. He
    named that science public relations.
    The success of his “make
    the world safe for democracy” meme during the war, both at home
    and abroad, planted the seed of an idea in his mind. Could group
    psychology tactics be applied during peacetime? After the Committee
    on Public Information was disbanded he decided to find out, and in
    1919 he opened the world’s first pubic relations agency. He referred
    to his office as The Council on Public Relations.

    This was Bernays’ specialty,
    engineering social trends for clients, and he was very, very good at
    it. Perception was now a commodity for sale to the highest
    bidder.
    Bernays aided the CIA and United Fruit Company (known
    today as Chiquita Brands International) in a successful campaign to
    topple a democratically elected Guatemalan government in 1954, he
    headed up the public relations campaign to garner support for the
    fluoridation of municipal water supplies on behalf of the aluminum
    mining Alcoa Inc, who was looking for a cheap way to dispose of their
    industrial waste, and he even helped a company convince the American
    public to eat heavier breakfasts so that they would buy more bacon.

    What made Bernays so successful was his
    skill in applying of 3 psychological tactics:
    1. Creating
    carefully calculated associations with the subconscious fears and
    desires of individuals.
    2. Influencing opinion leaders and
    perceived authority figures in order to reach those who followed
    them.
    3. Initiating the contagion of behaviors and ideas through
    social conformity.
    Bernays wrote several books promoting these
    psychological tactics including “Propaganda” and
    “Crystalizing Public Opinion”. In these books he
    specifically encouraged governments and corporations to use his
    methodology to manipulate public perception.
    This suggestion did
    not fall on deaf ears.

    His techniques worked so well that they
    were adopted by virtually every sector that sought to influence the
    public: media, politics, advertising, even the military. As Walter
    Lippmann had indicated, it was a revolution.

    Joseph Goebbels, Hitler’s propaganda
    minister, found Bernays’ approach very useful. Bernays acknowledged
    this fact in his 1965 autobiography entitled “Biography of an
    Idea” where he wrote:
    “Karl von Wiegand, foreign
    correspondent of the Hearst newspapers, an old hand at interpreting
    Europe and just returned from Germany, was telling us about Goebbels
    and his propaganda plans to consolidate Nazi power. Goebbels had
    shown Wiegand his propaganda library, the best Wiegand had ever seen.
    Goebbels, said Wiegand, was using my book Crystallizing Public
    Opinion as a basis for his destructive campaign against the Jews of
    Germany. This shocked me. … Obviously the attack on the Jews of
    Germany was no emotional outburst of the Nazis, but a deliberate,
    planned campaign.” (Biography of an Idea, page 652)

    The events that transpired in Nazi
    Germany stunned the world and they inspired several prominent
    psychologists to investigate how populations are convinced to commit
    atrocities. In the process they inadvertently established the science
    behind Le Bon’s and Bernays’ methods.”

    And this:

    “Most societies have an elite and
    the elite try to stay in power. And the way they stay in power is not
    merely by controlling the means of production (the money) but by
    controlling the cognitive map – the way we think. And what matters in
    this regard is not so much what is said in public, but what is left
    undebated – unsaid.”
    – Gillian Tett, Anthropologist /
    Assistant Editor – Financial Times

  • pcuvie

    All people responding to Steve Bakewell PLEASE read the article above to understand why Steve is reacting the way he is.

  • Champswest

    This Steve Bakewell guy (in the comment section) is doing his best to illustrate most of the stupid defense mechanisms mentioned in this article. Way to go, Steve.

  • Jez

    Homosexuals don’t choose to be homosexual. People of ‘different’ races don’t choose to be whatever race they happen to be. People with special needs or ‘disabilities’ don’t choose to be that way.

    Vegans choose to be vegan.

    Vegans are not a “minority”.

    Well done though, good try.

  • CSC

    More people are becoming aware that animals farmed for food are virtually never kept in humane conditions, and even if they were, the slaughterhouses aren’t. The drugs in animals’ diets, the selective breeding to create animals that can’t support their own weight because they’re so heavy with meat, the many recalls of meat due to e. coli and other dangerous contaminants from unsanitary slaughter practices, etc.

    Most sane people find this appalling. And most look for a humane alternative, and some of those people realize there isn’t one, so they become vegan.

    One could easily say that those who eat meat are just as quick to tell you that they do so. I bring up the fact I’m vegan if it’s relevant, and when it comes to just talking about food, probably at the same or less frequency that others talk about the meat they eat, the organic vs non organic issue, or the processed vs real food issue.

    I have not experienced hatred about it, but there is much truth in the article’s statements about defense mechanisms, which I’ve seen in action on many issues, certainly not just about one’s diet.

    There is a saying that all great truths go thru 3 stages: the first is to be ignored, the second is to be retaliated against, and the third is acceptance. RE: the link about conservatives avoiding eco friendly products, another example is those who oppose limiting carbon emissions by tweaking their car/truck’s engine so it burns more fuel and emits lots of black smoke. It’s called coal rolling.

  • tony

    We need to form a religion around Veganism, There are already over a hundred different versions of the bible out there, what is one more? Who is with me?

  • Lana UK

    Ugh I know this is an old post but honestly, I had to say something. Loved the article btw.

    I was a vegetarian and now I am vegan. I have been working at the same office for almost two years and people only found out about my choice recently when one day they just brought pizzas without asking first and people were asking me why I wouldn’t eat. I just said I’m vegan, which surprised quite a few of them because they worked with me for a while and I never mentioned anything. I also never justify my choice any more because it’s usually pointless and it’s not a question of being right or wrong. it’s a question of the ego wanting to keep the sense of identity, like you mention, so no point.

    But honestly, most of the times (if not ALL) meat eaters have been the ones going completely crazy and aggressive when talking about this subject – it’s like you’re offending them by not eating meat. Honestly they have almost DEMANDED that I justified my choice even though I made it clear that I don’t want to talk about it because it’s MY choice. This seems to pi** them off even more, and I’m really not sure why.

    Anyway, what I wanted to say is that a) most of us vegans never mention our choice unless necessary, also because meat eaters seem to be waiting to point out any “non-vegan action” (i.e. ‘but you kill bugs when you drawn them when cleaning the lettuce!’) to call you a hypocrite and be able to live with themselves despite their actions, and b) Meat-eaters are usually the ones who have the biggest problem and even the most intelligent people I know turn into complete nonsensical people when talking about this subject and it never ends well, in my experience.

    It has always been like this, the mainstream always hates on the people who stand up for something.

    Projection, projection everywhere.

    Also, just a reminder to my fellow vegans: the omnivore’s reaction has NOTHING to do with us or our food choices and everything to do with how our choice makes THEM feel, which is not our problem nor our fault.

  • John Carbonaro

    Good work. Even more in depth than Melanie Joy. I do think that deep social conditioning since eating spoonfuls of flesh in the high chair also factors in. I think (in Freudian and object relations terms) that early identity formation and association with the loved parent also plays a significant role in holding onto animal objectification.

  • Steven Macks

    “If you are vegan, you probably avoid mentioning your dietary habits at all costs.”

    Uhh……….. No. In fact, that this claim is contradicted in practice is the real reason we carnivores find you so annoying. That and the fact that we don’t like being called murderers.

  • Technus

    I am thankful that the WHO came out with a study (or a summary of 800 studies) finding that processed meat, including bacon actually causes cancer. I’ve seen less bacon posts since then, but now the argument is “everything causes cancer so might as well eat whatever I want.” x_x

  • Scipio Leclerc

    You use freud and moral in one post? It’s a joke? Freud dream to fuck his mother. I never understand how this guy can become a exemple for the psychologie

  • eowiuhworighworighwrg

    I don’t feel guilty or anxious about being the top of the food chain. I know my place, and I don’t care about a chickens life. I can do whatever I want.

  • kirrikirri

    I don’t know why but whenever I see cute animals I get hungry. …

  • Manny Widener

    Vegans are the ones in my experience with the smug superiority complex.

  • Ashley Briscoe

    OR we hate vegans because they are misguiding the general public into the vegan life style. They shame, hate, bully anyone who KNOWS TRUTH. Dogs eat meat. Are you calling them murderers? Animals are violent and eat, rape and fight each other. I don’t see you shaming and bullying alligators. You people try to fit your personal life style choices into everyones. You try to fit everyone into a box. I mean lets just make all meat eaters (Animals too) eat nuts for protein. You all are crazy bullies. Most vegans are pro-choice too? How on EARTH is that ok? I eat what I was suppose to eat because its the circle of life. TRY RESPECTING MY CHOICES AND ILL RESPECT YOURS.

  • RabbitWarrior

    they used to call it moral insanity (psychopathy?)..it is also explains the Millgram experiments. I have struggled long and hard with it, and given the propensities of the human race am in the process of talking myself into reserving my compassions and care for the animals, and turning a blind eye to the suffering of humans…it will take some work, but i will perservere.

  • Cake

    “There’s this silly stereotype of the hostile, preachy vegan. I have never met one in my life.”
    You truly amazed me… Actually you’re probably right. Most vegan I know in person keep their opinion to themselves, but it’s like a whole new story when you go online comments in general.
    I have met as many preachy meat eaters as preachy vegan online actually. Comment section can turn the most quiet person into the most vocal one.
    To why people hate vegan, this is the simplest answer: No one like to have the idea of “correct way to live” shoved down their throat, and being told how nasty one can be for eating meat. But, that’s what preachy vegan loves to do on comments.

  • Jemima Mannix

    I am no longer vegan but was for approximately 2 years and I have to say I was shocked by the constant and scornful judgements I got from people. The fact that I was vegan only really came up when I had to refuse food at work, family gatherings, etc. I think it’s often this refusal to partake in something so normalised (no matter how polite your refusal is) that makes others feel judged and brings up unpleasant feelings of guilt and anger within them. What I find ironic is that their attacks are always directed at vegans themselves, “oh vegans are so judgemental and smug! vegans can’t take a joke!” but it’s not about vegans. Bacon jokes aren’t funny because you’re joking about a creature living a life of suffering and dying a horrible painful death – a reality that most meat eating/joke making people don’t want to even witness in a video because it would upset them so much. All vegans I have met in person have not been remotely hostile or preachy. If anything they take extreme care not to make others feel bad – even if others constantly say things that are ignorant and offensive. Online vegans are a bit different, but that is a two way street. That’s what the internet is – a place of discourse and debate.

  • Aaron Owens

    sorry but there is a pretty logical reason as to why people hate vegans. they are intolerable. when i was dating, the biggest turn off for me was finding out a girl was vegan. or even vegetarian. the moment i found out a girl was vegan or vegetarian, i lost all interest in her. i just could never, ever date a vegan or vegetarian woman. i realize its the trend flavor of the week, but its literally like trying to date another species. ladies, do you really think a guy wants to be around a female who says things like ‘are you really going to eat that rotting dead animal flesh?’, or ‘dont you realize that anytime you drink milk you are supporting rape?’. or when you go to a restaurant and a girl orders the seafood pasta but then tells the waiter ‘oh please dont put any seafood in it, im vegetarian.’ you know whats really awesome? a girl who eats like a human being. i met an italian woman who never got caught up in the vegan trend. she didnt have the angry, militant attitude. she was fun and down to earth. i married her. there is no bigger turn off to a guy than finding out a girl is vegan.

    • BenDoverUranus

      Dude, don’t confuse Vegans with Vegetarians, Vegetarians don’t give a shit about anyone eating meat or killing animals..

  • Runner

    I hate the murdering of animals, they should meat of animals who have died a natural death. That’s acceptable.

  • D Giangrande

    From the comments below I can see that vegan haters don’t read the articles they comment on!

  • Antonio Tejada

    Oh man, this article is comedy gold. THIS is exactly why people hate vegans: they’re preachy, insufferable crusaders with inflated sense of moral superiority.

    They just cannot wrap their heads around the fact that many meat eaters know every one of those facts about meat (where it came from, the fact that an animal had to die for it, that it’s bad for the planet, etc, etc, etc) and nonetheless are not bothered by it. Preachy vegans cannot understand that others can have the same information and arrive at a different conclusion. Preachy vegans also refuse to understand that they do not have a monopoly on morality, and that our moral view on this issue is just as valid as theirs.

    • BenDoverUranus

      Exactly, dude.. i’m still getting ad hominem replies for comments i made fucking years ago and all i did was state my own views respectfully.. i’ve debated religious people with more self-control than these lunatics.

    • Ace Rimmer

      >THIS is exactly why people hate vegans: they’re preachy, insufferable crusaders with inflated sense of moral superiority.

      Weird, people say the same thing about Apple fans.

  • J Kurayami

    Tons of animals rape and kill each other. Fuck em.

  • Olivier Girardot

    It’s interesting how the meat eaters who commented this article bellow, react exactly as described in the article. They are so proving the article’s point :)

  • The Deplorable Pony

    Freud was a charlatan, so….

  • Yaki Raw

    its a very good article, ignore the haters commenting below, ppl should stop hating vegans, they are heroes. also tired of the stupid jokes ppl make

  • Dee Ⓥ

    Carnism explained by Dr.. Melanie Joy.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao2GL3NAWQU

  • Sonia McGahren

    Ignore this ‘chowder’ he sounds about 70, but is probably 40. Ppl don’t like change- just be a bacon sandwich already ya has been

  • Julie Day

    JUST BRILLIANT…. and this could be applied (and I WILL apply it) to various aspects of life, especially in these troubling times!!! HAHAHAHAH Much love to you!

  • Brekkaa

    My Birthday is coming up and I have to have dinner with my family. They have always criticized my diet and I know giving them facts about how being vegan is better because they won’t listen. I often tell them “can you please respect my choices to eat this food, My doctor says I’m healthy” because I’ve done this before and they just claim that i’m being smug and rude… i don’t know what to do, my birthday might turn out o be a disaster…

  • MsFelix50

    Vegans are assholes, plain and simple. It’s isn’t weird, it’s totally rational. I work at a sandwich shop, an Italian style deli. You’d think the last thing a vegan would want is a sandwich from an Italian deli…Especially seeing as how all of that meat is sitting in the case staring at them and they are technically supporting the slaughter of animals with their money. (your money pays for the meat we order, regardless of what kind of sandwich you eat!)

    During a busy lunch hour, I accidentally had a tiny piece of turkey fall into the wrapping of some lady’s “vegan” sandwich. Now I used wax paper to cover her sandwich anyway, but the idea that she had to see a piece of turkey was such a horrible experience that the btch decided to complain about it. This is your typical white privilege problem. The very idea that she had to see a piece of turkey that did not make contact with her sandwich was worth complaining about?? You have no idea what it’s like to work in food service during a busy lunch wave. You are an entitled human being! There are people who are starving to death right now, but my god! You had to see a piece of turkey today! There are turkeys dying whether or not you’re eating them. If you go into a sub shop and expect to not have to see meat, you’re a lunatic and you’re self absorbed. If you want to have a “vegan” dining experience, 1. pack your own lunch, 2. go to a restaurant that specializes in vegan dining.

    Btw, this “sandwich”-if you can call it that-was lettuce, tomato, mayo (not vegan!), and salt/pepper. We offer a veggie sandwich, with artichoke hearts, marinated mushrooms, lettuce, tomato, pickles, olives, and roasted peppers. What kind of an idiot eats a lettuce tomato and mayo sandwich first of all?? That’s a salad with bread….which we sell in the case up front…

    If you’re ever wondering why people can’t stand you…the above mentioned experience is why. You’re the only people who will go out of your way ruin someone’s life (you know, an actual fellow human being, as opposed to an animal??) These kinds of things can get good and hard working people fired. And for the record…I didn’t kill that animal and I don’t eat this food.

    Funny thing, vegans are the only people I ever seem to have issues with. People with Gluten allergies, dairy allergies, seafood allergies, peanut allergies, cultural/religious dietary issues, make these issues well known to us in advance.

    If people are selfish, well Vegans are the most selfish of them all. No consideration towards their fellow man at the expense of an animal.

  • Pavlus Veganski

    What are meat eaters doing in this thread? This is for vegans. Not carnists. If you are a carnist, fuck off!

  • Rosa Borisova

    Sadly, there are lots of foolish, misguided, arrogant individuals and racists comments. Blobbing just about anything… even if it makes no sense what so ever. Their insults are the best of everything they clearly can offer. Not impressive at all. You can hate VEGANS all you want but the truth is that when we eat, wear and use animal products we create, encourage, allow and promote diseases, hunger, wild life extinction, pollution, global warming, deforestation and violence. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b8dfce0aa20cb9e5aa74074ece2702a4281b5e3f2968d923cac5c3824fa7aaea.jpg

  • Taylor Anderson

    For me it’s all the misinformation. People have actually told me that gram for gram broccoli has more protein than chicken (more specifically steamed broccoli; btw doesn’t change nutrition content). I’ll look up information from nutrition organizations (like the USDA) and get backlash from people saying that those conspire to print wrong information to keep people eating meat (although, they don’t bring ANY facts on their own).

  • Will Freeman

    I did not know there were enough hard drives in the world to store all of Rosa’s pro-vegan memes! I’ve been vegetarian for 20 years, but seeing all that lovely meat close up in those pictures has tempted me to go back to meat eating! :)

  • Will Freeman

    On a more serious note, I think (hope!) that the unpleasant (and counterproductive?) version of veganism where it is self-righteous and put upon other people are a vocal minority. Loads of vegans I know never even bother talking about their diet as they just don’t find it that interesting.

  • Will Freeman

    The more I think about this, and read these comments, the more I realise that many vegans, vegetarians and omnivores seem to view veganism and vegetarianism as black and white and absolute. Perhaps that’s where the friction between vegans/vegetarians and omnivores comes from… this idea that you have to be a devoted absolutely to being vegetarian or vegan. It doesn’t have to be that way. I’m vegetarian. My wife has one or two days a week where she eats meat (and always goes omnivore on holiday; gotta soak up the culture). My mum is an omnivore each day, but gets meat from a local farm she knows well. Do a little. Do a lot. It’s all cool. We can all be at different places on the spectrum between vegan and carnivore. If people are keen to learn about changing their diet, give them advice… but none of us need to force our diet choices on other people, or be aggressive about it.

  • John Keith

    Dammit, that was a worthwhile read…

  • Pisces

    Omnivores don’t hate vegans just militant vegans. They get in other people’s faces, make snap judgments, force their views onto others, are ignorant to how farming actually works, believe humans are herbivores, and feed cats (obligate carnivores) and dogs (facultative carnivores) vegan diets. Unfortunately they are the vocal minority so people assume all vegans are like that. All other vegans respect that people have differing diets and when they promote their diets, they do it factually and nonjudgmentally. I myself don’t like militant vegans. However I take issue with the philosophy since (a) we need meat and (b) I actually worked and learned about the farming industry so I know what actually goes on

  • Joe Zangief

    Thanks for all the educated posts, guys. Sorry there’s such a high amount of insensitive people unwilling to change their habits.

    People will do and say anything to maintain their status quo. Addicted

  • Natalie Frenshen

    I started blaming my doctor….saying my doctor told me I have to be on a no fat diet or get on medicine for cholesterol. That usually shuts people up.

  • Elle Jacobo

    Before I made the informed decision to eat vegan, I had a fear you might find funny. My ex-boss was a vegetarian that was frozen in time: the 60’s. He had long hair, didn’t wear deodorant, smoked cannabis, would offer to analyze your dreams–fit the boho-hobo stereotype. He shopped at the local vegetarian market and all I ever saw go in there were modern bohemians, thin suburban mothers and some hipsters. I feared trying veganism might turn me into a full-fledged hippie.

  • justjoseph

    Veganism is fashionable. Vegan propaganda stuffs the internet. Veganism is connected to politics. They all say ” Hey, you can get it all from plants” but few do. So, what do most vegans eat? Packaged, vegan junk food. Hugely profitable, empty calories. Once a person with OCD discovers veganism, watch out! They will have a field day, chiding others from robbing bees of their hard-earned honey, showing them questionable PETA snuff films, slandering anyone who has actually witnessed real agriculture on a daily basis as cruel and unconscionable.
    Veganism is PHONY. Regardless of contentions to the contrary, most vegans know little about nutrition, or how one can achieve it from a plant-based diet. And hey, anyone who has a problem with animal testing needs to immediately volunteer to be human test subjects for the pharma or industrial interests that wish to test their wares before marketing them or just STFU.
    Watch the DIscovery channel. Animals eating animals ALIVE. That’s part of the ecosystem. Our development of agriculture/animal husbandry is as well. Man has considered the use of animals ethical for MILLENIA….so what the hell is the problem NOW?

  • justjoseph

    Veganism is a 1st world, affluent, elitest fashionable lifestyle popular with persons with mental illness such as OCD and Aspergers, and includes a VERY SMALL part of the world’s population, so small as to be insignificant and irrelevant.

  • Vivi Siow

    Pretend to know better…I think it’s obvious that you’re a troll now.

  • Piperlee

    Rosa, I believe Mark McCarrion is employed by agribusiness. His name is one clue. His frequent posts here are another. It’s pretty clear he’s a PR flack.

    Your info is true but there is no convincing people like McCarrion and Vivi(section) because they are profiting from the animal abuse and, I think, paid to promote it.

  • Alborz Ajeli

    lol 700+ comments from triggered flesh addicts pretty much tells you that this article/physiological analysts was bang on the money. You people are utterly pathetic, and more than half of you will die from cancer or cardiovascular disease, given how you eat and live, that much is a guarantee ;)

  • Vivi Siow

    Yes,but the lifespan of some of the animals would last quite long,so as the demand gradually decreases,where would these animals go? I mean,I doubt there’d be enough land for them all in one place,or in multiple areas,and the Farmers would cast them off because of no profit. Would there be enough funding to care for these animals? Where would there be land for them to live ‘happily’? :/
    Do you want to explain more on your last sentence?My main point is that rosa should stop insulting and slandering people,but I don’t mind delving into your view of what isn’t natural. ^_^

  • Rosa Borisova

    Cheryl WOOOW Wait a minute. You say”You are amazingly accurate, I couldn’t have put this better myself Rosa!” … then go on accusing me of promoting flesh eating and animal abuse? You make no sense. Are you drunk, on drugs or just crazy? Where did you get that from? Read again my previous comment and tell me when did I said that we “need animal protein to survive” ????? I chose plant – base life style 15 years ago and will nEVER< EVER promote absurd, outdated, crippled, barbaric industries !!!!! I'd rather be dead. I hope this is some innocent mistake on your part. Please tell me it is.

    • Piperlee

      I think Cheryl is talking to you at first, then opening her conversation to people who eat animals. Clearly you are not one of those, Rosa!

  • Vivi Siow

    One of the profit making industries would be the vegan industry too,then. Lol.
    Simple. Industries want money-thus vegan and meat propaganda,thus this entire conflict. I do have an open mind. I came to the conclusion that some people could survive solely on plants and some just could not. The could not being in the majority since vegans are still in the minority. The fact…is that some people do need meat to live,and egging these people to continue the vegan diet could potentially risk death. :) The way to stay healthy that most people have done so far is to eat some meat and a ton of vegetables.
    How do you know that you’re not following vegan propaganda? Please take a look around how many had to quite because their health was failing. :c
    Maybe one day,you’ll see with your own eyes,someone who had…for this diet. I hope that day never comes.

  • BenDoverUranus

    So what? i’m supposed to say “OH I AM WRONG I AM SO WRONG” after the 1000th time some angry vegan comes up with a reactive reply which doesn’t even address my arguments in a fair light?

    You do me a favour and SHUT THE FUCK UP! i’ve had ENOUGH OF THIS FUCKING SHIT! how about you fuckers just leave me ALONE?

    and i back up my statements with science you insufferable cretin! Science IS FACTUAL not “Opinionated thoughts” you fuckwit!

  • Rafael Meier

    thank you people :’D
    .

  • Maria Fonseca

    Are we getting angry and defensive? intelligent arguments have been made but your brain is incapable of grasping anything other then your preconceived beliefs.

  • BenDoverUranus

    NO.. i’m fucking FURIOUS! all i did was provide some rational&logical arguments and i get so much shit.. SO MUCH SHIT..for it from you rabid,insolent.. fucking vegan shits!

    OH EXCUSE me that i don’t share your fucking Vegan opinion! now go fucking kill yourself if you don’t like that.

  • Diana A. Costa

    it ain’t hard to understand which one you should do.

  • Anasty Monartisa

    defense mechanism. all you’ve been saying is SO true to the text above. ‘people are selfish to the core and don’t like change’. wow so true. all the crap you’ve been saying about ancestors being fine with buying meat. so perhaps you’d be a racist on a different topic, for flaming people whose ideologies are different. well at least i don’t have to be vegan to see a hater.

    *oh excuse me that i don’t share your vegan opinion! now go fucking kill yourself if you don’t like that* you said.

    WHY DO YOU EVEN COMMENT IN A VEGAN COMMUNITY? this is true to that one comment pointed at you, about you only trying to piss people off, and yet you deliberately said you weren’t. so stop, if you actually weren’t.

    -and yay i’m also a dog person-

  • BenDoverUranus

    so perhaps you’d be a racist on a different topic,
    Except Morality is subjective and i have Humans on a completely different moral standard than other Animals. I don’t value a pig’s life as much as i value a Human’s life.(Even though i’m kind of a Misanthropist).

    about you only trying to piss people off, and yet you deliberately said you weren’t.
    LOOK AT THE START OF THE COMMENT CHAIN! I’ve been insulted over&over for just having a different opinion and most people didn’t even address the points i’ve made and just go straight to insults.

    All i did was state my personal views on Meat&Animals and I GOT INSULTED FOR THAT! I can only be respectful if the person talking to me is as well.

    You’ve not insulted me and i haven’t either, See? I only insult people who insult ME directly, if you go back long enough you’ll see that people have been riling me.
    WHY DO YOU EVEN COMMENT IN A VEGAN COMMUNITY?
    Because it was called the “Comment section” not the “VEGAN COMMUNITY” where people with different opinions get harassed.

  • BenDoverUranus

    Why dont you eat humans?
    Because i value humans more than any other living thing in the universe. even though they tend to be moronic(like vegans), i still care for this misguided&moronic species with the ability to split atoms..

    Meat eating and killing animals for meat is perfectly NATURAL&MORAL.

  • No need for a shallow grave

    See above, Julia. You mention Hitler. I bet you don’t know enough about History to know what he did wrong.

    BECAUSE YOU ARE A CABBAGE HEAD.

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201211/youre-vegetarian-have-you-lost-your-mind

  • BenDoverUranus

    If only it was that easy… but the only option here is “Kill animals” and “Kill animals”

  • Piperlee

    Perpetrators always want bystanders to be silent and look the other way so they can continue their hurtful actions. Victims hope the bystanders will speak up, act, get involved, and do something to stop or discourage perpetrators from committing their harmful actions. The perpetrators encourage each other and regard the bystanders with suspicion and hostility, hoping to drown out the victims’ voices. No one is telling you that you must go vegan, Mark. We are telling you who we defend. If you don’t have the sensitivity in your character to see what’s so wrong with the livestock industry, you simply don’t have it. Vegans speak up so that people who do have compassion, who do love animals and the environment, and who do nurture their spiritual development, will learn about the huge and multifaceted problems caused by raising animals for slaughter, not least of which is the animal abuse inherent in the process.

  • Piperlee

    “People often say that humans have always eaten animals, as if this is a justification for continuing to the practice. According to this logic, we should not try to prevent people from murdering other people, since this has also been done since the earliest of times”

    ~ Isaac Bashevis Singer

  • Piperlee

    Plant-based diets have been empirically proven to extend human life. Put out whatever untruths you feel you must to defend your choices, but the facts are available for all to see. Many, many animals are herbivores, including the many of the largest (elephants, gorillas, hippos…) So it’s equally natural to eat plants exclusively, and actually healthier for humans. You obviously like to keep things simple, Mark, but there are so many factors that you simply are not considering. You are stuck.

  • Piperlee

    The only reason the word ‘murder’ is said to apply only to humans is because only humans speak English. But you are correct that killing is killing, by whatever word or whichever perpetrator.

    Dear Mark, I am not so young. So much for your cliche. I came from a family of hunters and didn’t go vegetarian until 22 years ago, when I was 30. Then six years ago I went vegan. I wish I’d done it much sooner.

    I’m a biologist, so I’m well aware of evolution and natural behaviors, thank you. The fact is that many, many species are herbivores. As long as they’re not killed by someone, they live out their natural lifespan just fine.

    Of course I am free to do as I will with my own body, despite your backhanded acknowledgement of that fact. And yes, it remains the norm in this country to abuse animals for food and material, but that is changing.

  • Rhea

    The irony of your comment is that the entire article is about exactly what you are doing right now– rationalizing your own behavior despite of the direct harm it does to other living beings and the environment.

    There is not a single nutrient you obtain from animal sources that you cannot obtain as a vegan or vegetarian. I am a doctor and medical research shows that vegans and vegetarians actually live longer with less risk of obesity, type II diabetes, cardiovascular disease, and cancer. Here is a link to the article: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24871675.

    70% of Americans don’t get enough fruit and vegetables despite the fact that they are the cornerstone of a healthy diet filled with vitamins and phytonutrients that are key for fighting off free radicals. This is not the case for meat or dairy. Also, 70% of Americans are overweight or obese whereas the typical vegan weighs 30 less pounds than the typical meat eater.

    From a biological standpoint– we were hunter/gatherers mostly eating fruits and vegetables and rarely actually obtaining meat from hunting. If you’ve ever watched an episode of Naked and Afraid you can see how hard it is to actually hunt.

    There are a number of attributes of humans that show we lean greater towards the side of being an herbivore rather than towrads the side of being a carnivore. For example, you can’t tear flesh by hand, you can’t tear hide by hand…. We wouldn’t have been able to deal with food source that required those large canines. We can’t eat raw meat, rather we have to cook it as not to get sick from food-borne illness from it. This is obviously not the case for natural born omnivores– raccoons or bears, for example.

    In fact, our hands are perfect for grabbing and picking fruits and vegetables. Similarly, like the intestines of other herbivores, ours are very long (carnivores have short intestines so they can quickly get rid of all that rotting flesh they eat). We don’t have sharp claws to seize and hold down prey. And most of us lack the instinct that would drive us to chase and then kill animals and devour their raw carcasses. In fact, most of us are revolted by the sight of blood whereas carnivores salivate at it. When was the last time you got hungry at the sight of roadkill?

    Hope this was educational. Enjoy your day!

  • Order23

    Would you eat your cat or dog? Your excuses for eating meat that it’s”natural” are hollow in this day and age. There’s no reason to eat meat. Like the article says, you just don’t want to look at that fact.

  • Piperlee

    You are incorrect.

  • Piperlee

    I’m none of those. Just someone who loves animals, loves Nature, and cultivates wisdom and compassion. I have so many reasons to defend being vegan, including the fact that there are many thousands of nutritious and delicious plant foods to choose from. I think your passion for killing animals may come down to you having a vested interest in it, either you make money from it or enjoy doing it.

  • Corey Garrett

    I get that our ancestors ate meat and that its a complete protein but have you heard of any of the issues with including red meat in your diet? metabolic acidosis for example. High amounts of Sulphates or sulphur compounds or whatever you call them are in meat. When they are metabolized they reduce the pH of the blood. Then to compensate the body has to use your calcium to buffer that drop in pH. This is the main reason why osteoperosis is so high in North America. Another issue, what about heme? The part of the red blood cells that carries iron. That’s a carcinogen if you include it in the diet. And most people know by now that a diet high in meat is related to colo-rectal cancer. Meat is not essential or necessary for strong health, a couple of my cousins have been vegan for 8 years and they love it. You remember in school they called it meat and ALTERNATIVES. LOL even the damn biased school system doesn’t say it’s essential. Legumes, beans and nuts and grains will do just fine for protein. Plus they have fibre and vitamins and are without hormones to mess with your endocrine system and no cholesterol and barely any saturated fat.

  • Corey Garrett

    So then for soy, processing is beneficial the way they do it. It’s supposed to reduce prostate and breast cancer risk and it’s a great protein alternative too. You’re right about B12 and and K2 as well since plants don’t contain those. In the stone age people got it from bacteria cultures in the water they drank or from meat. So yeah it’s not from plants it’s from bacteria. Saturated fat is also necessary and I plenty of that in nuts, seeds and oils. The issue with your last comment is that it sounds like you’re saying that veganism existing for political reasons is a negative thing. Is that really a big deal? One of the goals of veganism is to drastically reduce the livestock population and the world would benefit from that because there would be less greenhouse gas emissions. Also there would be less water and food shortages since raising livestock costs more water and food than raising crops.

  • Will Freeman

    Sorry Mark – I keep replying to just your comments, but they interest me! I’m vegetarian, and I agree with you 100%. My diet is unnatural. Being an omnivore is natural for a human. But I do shit everyday that isn’t natural. Playing video games. Paying more for a T-shirt because it has a skateboard brand I like on it. Vacuuming dust. Using a computer. Is the natural/unnatural thing relevant?

  • Corey Garrett

    Being completely meat and dairy free may be unnatural compared to our ancestors’ diet in the stone age but people thrive without it. Every nutrient there is in meat you can get from plants, bacteria and the sun.

    So what do you think has been causing the climate change in the last 100 years? I figure you’re well educated in meteorology or something so you can tell everyone here.

  • Corey Garrett

    I’m not saying every nutrient you get from meat you can get from plants. I said that you can get all the nutrients that are in meat from a combination of plants, bacteria and the sun. Not just one of them. We get vitamin D from the sun and vitamin B12 and K2 from the bacteria.

    You need to get more knowledge about the digestive system before you say eating meat is essential. Our bodies can synthesize many of the nutrients we use from the nutrients we ingest. For example even though there’s no cholesterol in plants our liver uses fat and protein from our diet to create it. Also our bodies can synthesize all except 9 of the amino acids and a healthy individual has gut bacteria that produce tonnes of vitamins anyway. So there will be no deficiencies even in the long run if this diet is done right.

    And your other point that there’s never been a sustained vegan or vegetarian civilization is irrelevant. The civilizations before us didn’t have as much accessibility to food as we do and they didn’t understand that red meat has certain health risks.

  • Corey Garrett

    I will agree with you that red meat in moderation is not unhealthy and I’m not denying that the body can’t digest it but when people eat it every meal it will have a poor impact on their calcium levels. Lots of people eat way too much of it. By the way in addition to veganism being political there are many doctors and a lot of science out there who say a plant based diet is fine. They eat a whole-food, exclusively plant based diet and they don’t take supplements. The people who are deficient haven’t looked into the nutritional aspect enough. I’m still learning, scientists are still learning and weather or not we understand all of it, many people are very healthy. Dr. T Colin Campbell has been vegan since 1990 and he seems ok despite how old he is.

    All of the info in my last post was a factual, even vitamin K2 which you can get from natto which is fermented. Weather fermentation happens in your gut or out in the open it is a huge source of vitamins.

  • Rhea

    What if you were raised for food? Would that make it ok for me to eat you? What about little girls born into sexual slavery? Does that make it ok for them to have to live that life? You are taking out of the equation freedom of choice which every living thing should have the right to.

  • Rhea

    Wow you are a very angry person. Yes I am a doctor– thank you– which is why I sent you a link to some primary literature on PubMed discussing the many advantages of the vegan diet as verified through an observational study.

    Not sure how that is very ‘unscientific’. Here is the link again : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24871675.

    If you are interested in other related topics you can easily look through related articles among the other peer reviewed articles referenced within PubMed. This is how medicine works– researchers conduct real-world studies in human beings and measure objective measures such as this article lists (serum cholesterol, etc.) to come to conclusions. So objectively speaking, based solely on real-world evidence, the medical community has found benefits to a vegan diet. In fact, it is being studied in many patients with type II diabetes at this time.

    B12 is the only vitamin that is not ‘naturally’ within a vegan’s diet but is present in nutritional yeasts which most vegans use. Interestingly, it is actually supplemented in cows. Why? Because it comes from soil. If cows were actually allowed to graze they would consume some soil by accident; however in factory farms this is not the case so their food is supplemented.

    If you hate vegans so much– why are you frequenting webpages with vegans as the intended audience?

  • Rhea

    You have made unfounded uneducated comments during this entire conversation while I have shown you actual hard evidence. It’s actually laughable what an ignorant buffoon you are. I’m am done speaking with you. Read a book. Do something good with your life. Get atherosclerosis from all the meat you eat and die. Enjoy.

  • Piperlee

    First, “Mark McKarrion” is clearly a fake name, obviously chosen for its play on “Carrion”, which is the decaying flesh of dead animals.

    Second, the amount of time “Mark” has spent posting here indicates that he is being paid to post these comments. I suspect he is an agribusiness PR guy who feels free to insult people and post “alternative facts” because that is the nature of that business. Sad.

  • Alejandro Narváez

    If people have a bad diet they get sick that’s the same for meat eaters and non meat eaters. We can agree on that, and I guess that’s why there are people who go back to eat meat after trying a plant base diet, but there are people who actually gets a lot healthier. You can get pissed of all you want by personal experiences but since I’m on a plant base diet one and a half year ago I’m healthier than ever. I realize that eating meat is a choice and not a must. There’s no polite or likeable way to say to other people that they’re wrong and that’s why they hate us so much. But you are dead wrong. I used to eat animal products like most of the people but I opened myself to logic and tried the plant base diet on my own with great results. I like to read the ‘arguments’ of meat eating people and those arguments are so weak, unnacurate and full of prejudices. Since you are so passionate about your stuff, I guess you will never notice that. Funny thing is cancer patients have to stop eating at least red meat. Even the most carnivore doctor says that. I hope you don’t have to get that far to reconsider your unhealthy, unethical and unsustainable habbit.

  • Alejandro Narváez

    So you know more about my health than me and my doctor XD – have it your way man. The grease on your arteries must have got into your brain. You are a waste of time.

  • Order23

    Been vegetarian for 30 years and have no problems. I would be vegan but it’s hard when eating out.

  • Alejandro Narváez

    lol. Ok whatever. You’re like a smart person. Thanks for saving my life XD

  • Alejandro Narváez

    Keep saving lifes with bacon. You are doing great mr expert.

  • Will Freeman

    100% political? I’ve been vegetarian for 20 years as I’m a soppy animal lover, and I’d rather less animals dies to keep me alive. But I think it’s natural to eat meat. I really miss eating meat – it tastes great! And I’d never want to stop anybody eating meat. I’d happily prepare, handle and serve meat. My vegetarianism is only for me – totally personal. I’d never put it on somebody else. I ask this honestly and with an open mind. How am I being political?

  • Rebella Bex

    Oh dear, what a wrong ideology you have build on your mind? I dont eat meat over more than 30 years now and for 5 years i’m a happy vegan. I am healthy and i run my own vegan yogacafe. I guess i must be a longterm superwoman or something :-D I dont even take B 12. I eat very healthy, wild herbs and fermented and sprouted greens…You should try first before you tell people such a nonsens. xxxRebella

  • Alejandro Narváez

    Repeating something until you drop doesn’t make it true, even in our post-facts era. Please enlighten us with evidence on why people get sick if they cut meat, how eating meat helps the environment, how we evolve to eat meat and why we must enslave and kill animals to get two vitamins, because I haven’t heard a single valid argument from you rather than repeating the same stuff over and over like a spoiled little kid.

  • Alejandro Narváez

    I haven’t been that healthy in all my life. I’m not gonna change it just because a dumb old dude tells me otherwise.

  • Alejandro Narváez

    A biased “doctor” vomiting vegan propaganda. Just listen to it and then you can get to your own conclusions. I won’t piss you off anymore. Good luck. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajhX5jWmlL0

  • Will Freeman

    I agree with Brian. I’m only vegetarian, but I find it so tiresome when vegetarians or vegans use aggression, superiority, shock tactics and emotional acrobatics to get their message across. But I don’t think me and Brian are the exception. I think it’s more about a vocal minority.

  • Will Freeman

    Interesting. I very much take your point. I am vegetarian because I’m a soppy animal lover… but I’d never put that on anyone else, so I hope I’m not being too political with it. If you came round my house, I’d happily buy some meat in, handle, prepare and serve it for you (it might be crapply put together, me being vegetarian!) I’ve got a nice spot by the sea, so in this hypothetical situation, if we have a barbecue I’ll even use the same tongs on my crappy veggie sausages as you’re juicy burgers! :) So for me it is about not liking animals dying for my diet, but I realise that’s me being the awkward ‘unnatural’ one, so I’m not gonna put it on somebody else! In fact, in my time as a animal loving vegetarian, I’ve even had a butcher friend teach me a little of his work, and had a go at turning a cut into some steak cuts. It’s an incredible craft (and an incredible material)! And somebody was going to eat the meat, so it wasn’t wasted!

  • Dwayne Robbie

    Millions and millions of healthy, long living Vegans prove that we don’t need to consume rotting animal carcasses and/or secretions to survive, meaning that it’s a choice, not a necessity. In fact, on average, Vegans live approximately 7 to 9 years longer than Omnivores. Look around, almost all those obese people, are Omnivores. Most of those extremely healthy, attractive people living in their 50s and beyond? Vegans and Vegetarians. I’m sorry that you don’t know much about diet and nutrition and have been brainwashed by the animal products industry. More and more research is proving that a plant based lifestyle is the healthiest you can live. Just because you don’t want to believe it….. doesn’t make it not true.

  • Dwayne Robbie

    Sorry, you have been misinformed, there ARE millions and millions….. and the numbers are growing rapidly…… there’s at least a million in the USA alone…… “The just-released “Vegetarianism in America” study, published by Vegetarian Times (Vegetarian Times), shows that 3.2 percent of U.S. adults, or 7.3 million people, follow a vegetarian-based diet. Approximately 0.5 percent, or 1 million, of those are vegans, who consume no animal products at all.” Many other countries, like Australia, the UK, India, etc. have higher percentages of Vegans than the USA does.

  • Buddy Baker

    Natto contains more K2 than any meat, just one sweet potato has over a thousand percent the RDA for vitamin A, and vitamin D is from the sun. The only supplement vegans need to take is B12. Livestock are also injected with Vitamins B12 and D, so most people eating meat are only getting the B12 and vitamin D from supplementation. Also google “STRONGEST AMERICAN WEIGHTLIFTER”

  • Pisces

    Humans have evolved to use tools to hunt. We also learned to use fire to cook our food. Before then we ate meat raw. Also animals who eat road kill are scavengers. Not all carnivores and omnivores eat what has already been found dead. We are the same way. This has increased our chances of survival. Also the digestive system of humans is not the length of a herbivore’s. It’s actually in between that of a herbivore and carnivore.

  • Rhea

    Humans have evolved to ingest foods that actually result in their death? That is not evolution. In evolution, traits that are associated with a greater risk of death are eventually removed from the general population as the individuals that carry those traits expire prior to being able to pass those traits on to their offspring. However, evolution has, in many ways, been stifled in the face of modern medicine. Still, the chances of dying from cancer, heart disease, respiratory disease, stroke, diabetes, infections, kidney disease, or liver disease all increase in line with red meat consumption. In fact, a huge driver of death in individuals eating primarily meat is chronic liver disease. Red meat is on the WHO organization’s list of carcinogens– processed meats (including bacon, hotdogs) are actually group 1! Dr. Kim Williams (president of the AMA) has stated “there are two types of cardiologists: vegans and those who have not yet read the data”.

  • Aaron Owens

    I was a vegetarian for nine years and my health gradually deteriorated. It does not benefit everyone. My mom was vegan and she became anemic.

  • Vivi Siow

    You’re just like all the other vegans who like to insult other people who eat differently from you,it seems. Unhealthy?Unethical and unsustainable?since people know that humans are classified as ‘omnivores’,I’ll leave it to people who actually have some sense in their head to try and figure out what I mean. As for personal experience,it’s your body and not other people’s body,so how do you know they’ll fare the same as you?

  • Aaron Owens

    And I eat meat. Let’s compare our fitness shall we? My current picture is recent, at the age of 34. I can outrun and outlift most guys who are far younger than myself.

  • Aaron Owens

    My mom was a vegan and she ended up anemic due to lack of vitamin b-12. It takes usually three years for any symptoms to begin to show. I strongly recommend at least taking supplements, b-12 deficiency is no joke. It can cause irreversible damage.

  • kate

    Were you both eating whole food, plant based diets or did you eat more processed food, even including breads, tofus, and oils?

  • Vivi Siow

    Is It just me or are you being passive aggressive?O.O
    Um. I’d like to say that maybe you’re offended by mark’s opinion that it’s not natural,but we are omnivores so we eat both plants and meat. Being vegan is,unnatural. As in…not the insulting kind,more like the nature kind. We wouldn’t isolate you vegans for being ‘unnatural’ though,because you can choose what you eat,like what we choose to eat. It’s just opinion on omnivores and what they normally eat.

  • Vivi Siow

    Which is why I told you to relax. It only gives them more reason to Attack you and then say they’re the victims..

  • Piperlee

    “You’re just like all the other vegans who like to insult other people…” Vivi Slow

    The guilt and shame you and other perpetrators feel for your violent actions actually stem from your natural sense of kindness and caring, which you have blocked and are violating. Your attitude toward those who refuse to participate in animal abuse is indignation: “If you want to be a vegan, fine, but don’t tell us what to do.”

    While at first blush this seems reasonable, we quickly see that it is only because of the disconnections and bias inherent in our culture. Perpetrators wouldn’t dare say, “If you don’t want to beat and stab your pet dog, fine, but don’t tell me not to beat and stab mine.”

    We ALL know that we aren’t entitled to treat others, especially those who are defenseless, however we like, and that if we are responsible for doing harm, people have every right to ask us to stop.

  • Alejandro Narváez

    I’m sorry if I insulted anyone but tell me how is it ethical to pay people murder animals when there are plenty of different things to eat? – Also how is it ethical to use water and land that we are getting short of to raise animals, then kill them and then feed humans when you could use that water and land to feed humans directly. I’m sorry but one thing is to think different and another thing is to be wrong. And unless you explain why do you think eating meat is ethical, then you’re wrong.

  • Alejandro Narváez

    Yeah. But you didn’t explain how eating meat is more ethical an sustainable than following a plant base diet.

    The omnivore part is half wrong too. We are more like hervibores than carnivores. Yes. We can eat meat, but is hard to process by our bodies. Check out the China Study. People in China used to have a very lower cancer rate than people in the U.S. Not because they didn’t eat animal products but because they did in a much lower amount.

    Now we know that it’s possible to reduce the amount to almost zero, and have an even better health. About the “my body is different” argument. I don’t think you’re an alien or something, you are a human like me. Your organs work pretty much the same as mine, so if you’re so attached to animal products it’s just culture and advertising. There is no real argument here. There are millions of vegans and most of us are fine. We are not from a different species, our moms and dads are humans.

    Also check out how the animals are raised and murdered. It’s not the friendly mom and pop farm that our grandparents used to buy from. It’s a nightmare. And we are a lot of more people than before, so the number of animals that we have to kill to eat is scary.

    It’s up to you anyway. You’re free.

  • Alejandro Narváez

    I don’t know in which planet is more ethical to try to avoid killing an sentient being than plain killing it or pay to do so. As far as I know, killing sentient beings is not that ethical. People get so angry at that fact but that doesn’t change reality. If your habits require more killed animals than ours, then your ethics could be questioned too. I’m not saying meat eaters are bad persons, but they chose to continue with a lifestyle that requires that other people raise and kill millions of animals in order to feed them. That’s a fact. Meat comes from animals raised mostly under horrible conditions, and then killed by a human. Under horrible conditions most of the times too. It’s ok if you don’t want to follow personal opinions, but vegan diets are proven to be ok. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864 it’s something you can do, if you’re willing to do it.

  • Piperlee

    Google “vegan athletes” Mark. These are professional athletes who take their nutrition seriously and are very disciplined with their diets. Their experience completely contradicts yours.

  • Piperlee

    How animals are killed is completely relevant, Mark. Agribusiness has become institutionalized animal abuse. This is why the companies who practice it prosecute those who videotape what they do to the animals. They don’t want anyone to realize how terribly the animals suffer because people who love and respect animals would quit eating them, which means lower profits for the perpetrators. Look up “ag gag” laws.

  • Piperlee

    The gig is up, Mark.

    First, “Mark McKarrion” is clearly a fake name, obviously chosen for its play on “Carrion”, which is the decaying flesh of dead animals.

    Second, the amount of time “Mark” has spent posting here indicates that he is being paid to post these comments. I suspect he is an agribusiness PR guy who feels free to insult people and post “alternative facts” because that is the nature of that business. Sad.

  • Vivi Siow

    The difference between “If you want to be a vegan, fine, but don’t tell us what to do.” and “if you don’t want to beat and stab your pet dog, fine, but don’t tell me not to beat and stab mine.” is that one concerns our body and the other concerns someone beating a living being without permission. And of course then you will probably ask me “so what gives you the right to eat meat if they’re being killed without their permission?” The answer for that would be that it takes a life to sustain another life. Plants are life,animals are life. You’re taking a life to survive. So what if plants are not sentient? Does that mean you have the right to eat them?Take their life? I do not feel guilt and shame from eating meat,I feel guilt and shame for the way of how some animals die by our hands,some being tortured alive when just a shot to the head could’ve done it.
    If you believed the last sentence you typed,you would’ve stopped rosa from being so dismissive to Dona starbird when it was mentioned her health was getting worse from a vegan diet. I understand that you want your ways to be heard,but diets are NOT for everyone. Especially when death could be a consequence.
    It IS an insult to other people to call them unethical when they aren’t. It is a damage of reputation,etc. Do you really think people would support the torturing of skinning an animal alive before killing them if they found out about it? Even the people who eat meat would probably turn away unless they didn’t care about where their meat came from. If you truly care for these animals,I suggest you stop insulting people for eating meat,shaming them and so on and convince them to other venues. i’m sure you can think of one without getting them spitting at you,no?

  • Vivi Siow

    Sure,I’ll try to explain to you in the name of respect,if you’ll tell me why you think eating meat is unethical as well as keep the insults off the discussion. As for the ‘wrong’ part,it’s all a matter of opinion. I’m pretty sure you’ll find out the answer without my explanation,though,if you look hard enough into what you replied to. At least you seem civil enough for now,instead of outright telling people that you’d wring their neck…but I digress.

  • Alejandro Narváez

    Ok. Paying people to torture and kill animals without any need for it is super ethical. And eating animal fat is super healthy ¬_¬ … ok … your opinion

  • Rosa Borisova

    Mark McKarion 1) Didn’t post the “zebra picture” twice. And even if I did?So what. 2) Clean or change your glasses. 3)Why did I posted? Hmm, you can’t figure out… it’s simple. Because you are misguided and FAKE. You pretend to be carnivore or omnivore…? You think that feeding yourself with the decaying flesh, milk and eggs of other species is “normal” … then kill and eat what you kill with your bare hand and teeth right then and there… as this lioness is doing. I be you can’t. Unless you grow your own fur, powerful smell, jaws, claws, fangs, night vision, ability to run after, catch, hold and bring down to cut off (like this lion) animal’s bleeding, raw thick fur, testicles, skin, fat, guts, brains, eyes, veins, bones and all other body parts wile still alive… or deceased, every day for the rest of your life and enjoy a meal, you’re NOT a hunter, carnivore, omnivore, natural born killer. 4) Unless you pond your own eggs you mustn’t ROB other species from their own… just because you can. 5) You’re no longer a baby and the cow isn’t your mother either. The only milk you need is the milk from your own mother! That’s it. 5) Real predators have an important role on Earth to play … to rid us from diseases – the dyeing, the dead, weak and the sick. 6) If everyone here on Earth was a flesh eater we wouldn’t exist today. 7) What other species do is none of your damn business. Stop imitating them… it’s stupid and self – destructive. 8) Try to fight over peace of flesh with any large predator and you’ll loose in a flash. So agin, your desperate, idiotic idea that “we are on the top of the food chain” is another lousy effort to justify outdated, foolish, crippled ideas and life – style. Real carnivore/ omnivore animals wouldn’t give damn if you call yourself “human” or something else. If you smell blood and flesh and you’re good enough for them. So, STOP pretending to be something are not… you sound stupid.

  • Rosa Borisova

    Brian Lesko… No single true vegan would ever suggest that those who tell the truth are “insecure, whine bitches”? Wow, not impressed at all. Don’t like my comment, just leave. No one is forcing you to do a thing. If anything, you must “apologize” to all good, caring people taking precious time to do what is right, not what’s politically correct! Insult me all you want… guess how much a care? None. If that makes you feel good, you’ve achieved something. Bravo. You just show the world what are made of. I have a simple question for you Sir: What the hell you do to stop the suffering, the violence, the ignorance, arrogance? You claim to be “vegan” then you know the destruction Animal Agriculture creates. It’s not a secret, when people eat, wear and use animal products they create, encourage, allow and promote diseases, deforestation, hunger, wild life extinction, pollution, global warming and violence. Society has become so fake that even the truth bothers them. It’s sad. I actually feel sorry for you. Your common sense, compassion, morals, ethics and respect seem nonexistent. Can’t figure out, why on earth you became vegan?

  • Tom Hardy

    Lol don’t be a dick, you know what I mean. And no, my house isn’t overflowing with any of those. You totally missed the point. Jesus, you kill if you must, but you don’t NEED to to eat and “survive” XD

  • Rosa Borisova

    Absolutely false, became anemic at age of 7. Had eczema, rosacea and heart palpitations, became allergic to dairy and eggs at age of 11 while was eating animal products. Thanks to my uncle became vegan at age of 17. 15 Years Later feel and look better than ever. No sign of my previous health problems. My uncle is 76 and looks, feels and does his life as if is 30. He goes to marathons and participates in almost every sports activities quite often, none of his friends would never dream of. He stop eating all animal products at age of 46. You clearly didn’t do a thing to inform yourself about simple facts of Nature: we are NOT natural born killers, hunters, carnivore or omnivore. We are 100% herbivore. If you can’t eat is as is it’s NOT your’s to eat. As simple as that. You wouldn’t eat straight from a road kill (as is) would you? You wouldn’t run after animals to eat their testicles while still alive, raw, bleeding, screaming, crying, fighting, kicking for dear life, would you? No, because you can’t, it’s not in your instinct and nature. Simply because it’s unnatural, it makes no sense, It’s abnormal, absurd and impossible. No normal person would. The human body has no need for animal proteins and cholesterol, none. There’s a reason why there’s NO cholesterol/fat in vegetables, grains, seeds, grains, roots, nuts and fruits. Because all animal products are deadly to humans. No normal, good doctor would ever suggest to it’s cancer patients to eat more bacon, stakes, sausages, eggs and dairy… to get better. Animal products are the reasons for cancer, diabetes, osteoporosis, Alzheimer’s and other deadly diseases. You are prematurely destroying your own health, stomach, kidneys, heart and liver by eating animal products. It takes over 3 hrs to pass thru animal products but only 10-15 minutes for plant- based food. If we all were omnivore as you claim we are there would be no single animal left before Factory Farming. We would have no problem eating people too. Why eat some but not others. Omnivore/ carnivore animals don’t care how you look. As long as they smell blood and flesh… it’s good enough to enjoy us for dinner.

    A study published in the Journal of Atherosclerosis Research found that regular egg consumption could put your health at grave risk.
    The average American consumes about 247 eggs every year. This is over 40 percent more than the world per-capita average. Because egg yolks are loaded with cholesterol, a known risk factor for coronary artery disease and heart attacks, they are as dangerous as cigarettes according to scientists.

    Here few important to know US government statistics:

    80% Of the farm lands are used to feed and rase these animals instead of feeding people. America alone can feed 10 million people each year! Add 500 million tons of manure nearly 28 times more than the entire (US) humane population gross each year too. Polluting over 35.000 miles of (US)rivers, lakes threatening endangered fish, amphibians and birds. Over 117 endangered species that live on US lands are threatened by animal slavery only. Add self – proclaimed “hunters”, poachers and gold diggers. 50% of water goes towards rating animals for food. 74.5% Of global green house gases come from farm animals – more than trains, cars and airplanes combined.

    – For ONE veggie burger are needed: 42 gallons of water and ONE beef burger – 621 gallons of water.
    – One Lt. milk – 1000 Lt. water.
    – For one kg. beef is needed 32+ sq. meters of land,
    – One kg. of pork 20+ sq. m. land,
    – One kg. of chicken 18 sq. m.,
    – One kg. of eggs 18 sq. m.of land,
    – One kg. fruits about 2 meters,
    – One kg. potatoes 1 sq. m. and 1/2, and
    – One kg. veggies less than a meter.

    “As long as humans continue to be the ruthless destroyer of other sentient beings, we will never know health or peace. For as long as people massacre animals they will kill each other. Indeed those who sow the seed of murder and pain will never reap joy or love” – Pythagorus

    Mark Twain (1835-1910) – Of all the creatures, man is the most detestable. Of the entire brood, he’s the one that possesses malice. He is the only creature that inflicts pain for sport, knowing it to be pain. The fact that man knows right from wrong proves his intellectual superiority to the other creatures; but the fact that he can do wrong proves his moral inferiority to any creature that cannot.

    When we wear, use and eat animal products we create, encourage, allow and promote diseases, wild life extinction, hunger, deforestation, pollution, global warming and violence. To do and know better than this here few places to start with. On youTube, Netflix or/and Google:

    -WHAT THE HEALTH
    -FOOD CHOICES
    -THE FOOD WE WERE BORN TO EAT
    -WHAT’S THE “NATURAL” HUMAN DIET
    -NUTRITIONFACTS.ORG
    -DON’T EAT ANYTHING WITH A FACE
    -BBC : FOOD ON THE BRAIN
    -DR. COLIN CAMPBELL- THE CHINA STUDY
    -DR. ESSELSTYN
    -RAWFORBEAUTY.COM
    -HUMANEFACTS.ORG
    -NUTRITIONSTUDIES.ORG
    -RAN.ORG/RESPONSIBLE_FOOD_SYSTEMS
    -BEYOND CARNISM AND TOWARD RATIONAL
    -2 AND 1/2 MILLION YEARS THE BULK LIVED ON STARCH BASED DIETS
    -FOOD STUDIES INSTITUTE – FOOD IS ELEMENTARY, AWARD WINNING NUTRITIONAL CURRICULUM TEACHING…..
    – EUROPE’S DARK SECRET : EYE OPENING SPEECH
    – UNITED POULTRY CONCERNS : UPC-ONLINE.ORG

    + The Food We Were Born To Eat, Dr. Colin Campbell – The China Study(book), Dr, Esselstyn, UPC-ONLINE.ORG, freefromharm.org., evolve.com, Don’t Eat Anything With a Face.
    http://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-role-of-bovine-leukemia-virus-in-breast-cancer/
    http://nutritionfacts.org/video/how-much-cancer-does-lunch-meat-cause/
    http://nutritionfacts.org/video/breast-cancer-survival-butterfat-and-chicken/
    http://nutritionfacts.org/video/eggs-choline-and-cancer/
    http://www.today.com/health/eating-you-alive-new-film-claims-plant-based-foods-could-t107610
    https://www.facebook.com/plantbasednews/videos/1789720841281012/
    THANK YOU.
    Hhttps://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/af2df3de3c86457bbe9718185141c8ff75b4aa1085adc5d03cc0a83b67674059.jpg

  • Tracey Frebertshauser

    So silly. I have been a vegan for 11 years and I have more energy, wisdom and love then anyone I know.

  • Rosa Borisova

    Don’t give damn what you do… looser

  • Piperlee

    Oh, here’s Mr. Meat Industry PR Flack McCarrion, at it again! Do you and Vivisection Slow work for the same company?

  • Piperlee

    Mr. Carrion, for such a busy engineer, you responded to my post in less than 5 minutes. Seems your vocation is actually anti-vegan. You and Vivisection Slow.

  • Piperlee

    So, McCarrion, you are in the anti-vegan business. Well, you’ll learn.

  • Vivi Siow

    If that was meant to be for me,then I see you have fallen to name insults… That says volumes about your personality,in my opinion.

  • Vivi Siow

    PS : Assuming you’re an adult,you should know better than to assume outlandish things. Maybe you’re part of the vegan industry?

  • Vivi Siow

    If I was actually anti-vegan,I wouldn’t have said that some people could survive on plant based diet while some could not. But it does quite seem you’re a person who loves to insult people. One day,you’ll understand why insults doesn’t do anything,but words do. :/ I hope that day comes for you soon. Good luck!

  • Piperlee

    As the science on the benefits of plant-based diets to both peoples’ health and to the environment continues to pile up, even someone with your obvious investment in continuing to exploit animals may eventually realize that slavery was never right either, except in the minds of the exploiters.

  • Piperlee

    You have exposed your vast arrogance, McCarrion, as well as your intimate knowledge of the exploitation of animals for food, which you have otherwise disavowed many times. Or perhaps you were actually bragging about having intimate knowledge of human slavery?

    You claim not to have ever met an intellectual vegan, and that vegans are stupid, uneducated, uninformed, naive, clueless no-nothings about science, nutrition, and anthropology – just in that one post. Clearly, you have never met Dr. Williams, who writes:

    “There are two types of cardiologists: vegans and those who have not yet read the data”.

    – Dr. Kim Williams, President of the American Medical Assn.

  • Piperlee

    My goodness, McCarrion. You’re actually claiming that your “solid foundation in nutritional knowledge” makes you more credible than the President of the AMA. Such unfounded hubris! But then, you are a PR flack for the animal abuse industry, even if you are only volunteering for the job.

    How about Albert Einstein?
    Do you think him emotional and juvenile as well?

    ——————————————————
    “Nothing will benefit health or increase chances of survival on Earth as the evolution to a vegetarian diet.”
    ~Albert Einstein
    ——————————————————

    How about another cardiologist?
    Do you claim to know more than the Editor of The American Journal of Cardiology as well?

    ——————————————————
    “When we kill animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings, who are natural herbivores.”
    ~ William C. Roberts, M.D., Editor-in-Chief, The American Journal of Cardiology
    ——————————————————

    How about this guy, another medical doctor?

    ——————————————————
    “Our study suggests that the closer one approaches a total plant food diet, the greater the health benefit…. It turns out that animal protein, when consumed, exhibits a variety of undesirable health effects. Whether it is the immune system, various enzyme systems, the uptake of carcinogens into the cells, or hormonal activities, animal protein generally only causes mischief.”
    – Dr. T. Colin Campbell, Author, The China Study
    ——————————————————

    C’mon, McCarrion. The gig is up. You can’t lie your way through this. People are catching on.

  • Piperlee

    Your comments show you think yourself more knowledgeable than medical doctors and scientists. No one with any sense – except those invested in the animal abuse industries – will accord you any credibility whatsoever. You have zero credibility, McCarrion.

    By the way, half of young people are now avoiding meat for reasons of environment, animal welfare, and health. Like the dairy industry, you and your beloved meat industry will soon fade away. Thank goodness.

  • Piperlee

    I’m only focusing on you because you are here in your job as PR flack for the animal abuse industry. Go elsewhere if you can’t stand the heat.

    Second, I don’t expect somebody like you to respect vegans. You take money to push that position as hard as you do.

    However, doctors and scientists are another matter when it comes to credibility. You studiously ignore their words here, but I suppose that is your way of coping.

    Remember the words of Dr. Kim Williams, President of the American Medical Association: “There are two types of cardiologists: vegans and those who have not yet read the data”.

  • Alejandro Narváez

    It’s been a while since we started this discussion, and if you were right, I should be dead or sick. I’m NOT. In fact I’m better than ever, so yeah, it’s possible to follow a vegan diet, and of course it’s more ethical because we can have less impact, and cause less suffering. It’s not because we are liberals or conservatives or something, it’s not an opinion, we need less animals killed, and our impact is lower too. I don’t see how that is not ethical or a good idea. And about the diet it’s ok too. Please read this articule from a non political and neutral organization https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864 Also please check this guy. He’s one of the best bodybuilders in Germany and he’s vegan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrik_Baboumian

  • Alejandro Narváez

    According to the info I have, good fat is on avocados, any kind of nuts, coconuts, and sources like that. Besides that it’s a good idea to avoid processed oils. Vegetal or animal. Specially animal. I don’t know where did you get the idea of animal fat being extremely healty but I got some recommendations from the World Health Organization. – not liberal or politic – http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs394/en/ this is what they have on fat

    Fat intake can be reduced by:

    changing how you cook:

    – Remove the fatty part of meat; use vegetable oil (not animal oil); and boil, steam or bake rather than fry.
    – Avoiding processed foods containing trans fats.
    – Limiting the consumption of foods containing high amounts of saturated fats (e.g. cheese, ice cream, fatty meat).

    I won’t reply to your comments anymore. You have some info from reliable sources. – NOT OPINIONS – you decide what to do with it. Also I don’t know in which planet is more ethical to try to avoid killing an animal than plain killing it or pay to do so. As far as I know, killing is not that ethical. People get so angry at that fact but that doesn’t change reality. If your habits require more killed animals than ours, then your ethics could be questioned too. I’m not saying meat eaters are bad persons, but they chose to continue with a lifestyle that requires that other people raise and kill tons animals in order to feed them. That’s a fact. Meat comes from animals that were killed by a human.

  • Vivi Siow

    I don’t believe that most meat comes from extremely horrible conditions. Most of it was from a quick and painless death of the animal who had all their needs satisfied,except for a few poor animals who got tortured before being killed.
    I don’t get angry over that fact. And no,I don’t need my ethics to be questioned. Why should I be questioned for eating meat? It is necessary for me to eat it to survive. Plant based diet can work for some people,but for most,it wouldn’t work. Many vegans switch back to a diet that has meat due to nutritional problems. Even animals kill their prey to eat meat,and why should humans be the one exception? Plant based diet ONLY works for some people,and is not a choice for most,since otherwise there would have been less ex vegans. An essential nutritional supplement for vegans is also known as the B12 pill or B12 fortified food,which means….you lack a nutrition from not eating meat. There are many other nutrition that you miss out on besides this,I’m sure. But don’t question people’s ethics and force them into feeling guilt for something they should not feel guilt for,as they are just doing what is necessary for their own health. It’s fine to ask them to try-it’s not when you bring shame tactics into question. Especially not when you can’t be responsible for the damage they might bring onto themselves by your words. It’s not that I don’t believe plant based diet can’t work,but that it doesn’t work for most people. Also,I think you contradict yourself-you say you don’t think that meat eaters are bad people,but you say they should have their ethics be questioned and that it’s an unethical habit. The problem is-it’s not unethical to eat meat. If you feel that killing sentient beings are bad,then plants are also living beings,too. It’s not confirmed on if they have feelings or not,but yes…they live. In the end,everyone takes a life to sustain their own life by that reasoning.

  • Alejandro Narváez

    100% of people who gives statistics without a source are full of shit.

  • Alejandro Narváez

    Where do you get your nutritional info? from Alex Jones?

  • Alejandro Narváez

    I don’t have statistics but I’m not using them as arguments to anything either. But just check this guy Patrik Baboumian. He’s a German Bodybuilder, vegan since 2011. If you’re right, then he should be dead by now, or he should have anemia. Most people who try to become vegetarians for the first time are pretty young and their families don’t know how to help them with a proper diet, so they drop out or get sick. As any vegan or not person would get sick on a bad diet. So if people backs out that’s doesn’t necessarily proves that you can’t follow a vegan diet and be healthy. Also I’m not sure if Psychology Today is a reliable source on nutrition. Why don’t you try a better stablished organization like the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations. Here is what they say: http://agris.fao.org/agris-search/search.do?recordID=US201301622290 according to them, the diet is healthy. You only need to take B12 and Omega3, and you’re good to go. We can generate D vitamins by exposing our skin to the sun. The “plant life” issue is also misleading. Plants are not sentient beings and lack of central nervous system, so eating a plant doesn’t generate suffering as eating an animal does. It’s impossible to not have an impact of corse, but if you can reduce your own impact wouldn’t be better than just do nothing about it? – And if you’re so worry about plants life, then guess how many plants, land, water etc… are needed to raise the animals meat eaters need to eat. All those resources could be used to feed humans directly. So eating meat is also consuming a lot of resources that are necessary to grow the animal you eat. And yes, we are few people, and our impact is insignificant, but we do what we can with the power we have, and fortunately the movement is growing. Vegan haters are decreasing, and people is getting more open to accept us. It’s getting even trendy at some places.

  • Alejandro Narváez

    Anyway. Thanks for your comments. You made me consider some things I haven’t think of. I’m not going back to eat meat, but I have to do a better research.

  • Missy Witt

    Explain what mental illness……and why as in due to a Vegan diet alone please.

  • Vivi Siow

    Heya!I saw you reply to me,but I couldn’t find it anywhere so I decided to reply here. I hope you don’t mind. :)
    There is a reason why I said some people can survive on plant based diet and why I said that some cannot. There are examples like the entire culture of india(that you typed) and a number of ex vegans,which lead to my conclusion of the above.

    Also,although you realise there is a risk,I believe that everyone has their own,unique constitution and thus,cannot follow the plant based diet. There are also a number of ex vegans who had other similar,like minded people before their conversion back to the original diet that had praised them for their own planned nuritional diet,yet still became malnourished and had to eat some meat. There are also those that had success doing so,which also leads to the conclusion I have on the first paragraph.

    Sure,you’re saying that they didn’t say to live off grains. The problem is that the ones I have seen so far told us to eat said grains. But,ignoring that problem,I could see the point they’re trying to make. However,there’s still the problem of how much land would be needed to feed the human population,and if everyone could actually survive only on plant based.(which,I don’t believe since there are people who tried,and turned back. But yet people who had success.) As for the information you typed to me,I would like to know where you got the source from. This is not meant to offend you,but I am actually quite doubtful about how they get this information. Was there studies and research papers on it,or have they done their own research themselves and estimated this? Or was it just from images on the internet? Although it would be great if people who follow this diet could help save the environment,I also believe that risking their health to do so would be bad.

    Another thing on plant based diet is that the human body cannot digest insoluble fiber,so I believe too much of just plants would be detrimental. I’ve also heard that it could cause some problems with the intestines,so I would like to know what you believe about it. :)

    I disagree with your opinion that people do not need to take a life to sustain their own life. This is because plants,which vegans eat,are also living things,and animals are living things,too. For fruits,nuts,and anything else-I haven’t decided on my own opinion of those yet. However,I think if one were to eat only fruits and nuts,there would be some kind of nutritional defect as well.

    I hope you start conversations like what we’re having now. It’s just great that people aren’t yelling into my ear and not trying to answer my questions,or try to change my mind without telling me i’m (Insert derogatory terms and implied insults). Thank you if you took the time to read this,and it’s fine if you don’t reply-everyone is busy nowadays,so I’ll understand. I hope you enjoy life! :D